Trans Swimming sessions

[DaveDave]

Just saw the below event advertised at my local pool. How come this is ok but we can't have biologically female only swimming sessions? I'm annoyed, not because of the event, but because it seems impossible to have female only swimming without being accused of being transphobic.

"Been hoping for a swimming event that's only for trans, non-binary, and/or intersex people? Well, here it is!

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring. Whether you want to swim laps, float about, or just hang out, you're very welcome. We want these sessions to be accessible to as many people who need them, so if you need a carer who is cisgender to attend with you they are welcome to come along. Parents/guardians are welcome to come and wait in the changing rooms but will not be allowed in the pool or on the poolside.

VENUE: The venue will be given to you during booking to ensure privacy. Please do not advertise this information. You can arrive 15 minutes prior to our swimming session starting, but please note that if you arrive more than 15 minutes late you may be locked out. There is very little phone reception by the pool so you may not be able to get in touch with anyone to let you into the building.

CHANGING FACILITIES: The changing room is gender neutral, wheelchair accessible, and has individual changing and shower cubicles. Before swimming you'll have 15 mins to get ready, and 30 mins at the end.

AGE RANGE: This event is for all ages, but if you're under 18 you'll need to get a consent form signed. Just let us know when you're booking and we'll send you one to bring filled in on the day. Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered. If you have [insert word you're comfortable using for your chest/boobs/breast tissue] you'll need to have your chest covered too. A rash vest would be best, but if you don't have one or can't afford one a light weight t-shirt is also acceptable.

BOOKING: To book, or ask any questions, contact [email protected]. If you are disabled and need a cisgender carer to attend with you please let me know during booking.

COST: This event is free to attend but as a charity we welcome donations. You can donate on our website

www.rainbow-project.org/donate/ or there will be a donation bucket available at the event.

(redacted)

I remember something like this being posted years ago. Almost the same wording.

not accusing of trolling. Just saying nothing new.

I'll remember that next time I send my son to school, afterschool, summer camps, sports camp.

The fact they’ve organised a mixed sex, mixed age swimming session behind closed doors with no parents allowed and not one of their multiple staff members with various Officer titles has safeguarding included in their job description, maybe?

so trans people of any age including under 18’s (so children basically) with no parental supervision.
Well what could go wrong there?

You send your child to organisations legally obliged to only employ staff that have cleared DBS checks and should have policies to make sure children are appropriately supervised. It’s that level of reassurance you take for granted that isn’t being clarified here.

Women-only sessions do not exist where I live. They all include transwomen (self-id) as 'women'. Thus, these are mixed sex sessions.

This excludes many women, as they cannot/do not wish to share with men.

This is a good idea, not sure why it’s getting hate here. Women here always say ‘organise your own events, don’t take ours’ that’s exactly what they’re doing and it’s still an issue?

Turning it into a safeguarding concern is baffling. It’s saying under 18s can come, if they have a consent form but their parents who aren’t trans can’t. That’s like organising a women’s only event, saying girls can come but their dads can’t as it’s not for them. It’s weird to imply it’s anything sinister. It’s a private event, they’ve set out their boundaries, individual parents can decide whether or not they allow their kids to go.

These sorts of events are a step in the right direction, recognising the need for trans people to have their own spaces without infiltrating anyone else’s.

@DaveDave
You did not see this advertised at your local pool
Because, as clearly stated in the post the venue is kept private to all but those who wish to attend.

Unless of course you have contacted the organisation and self ID’d as trans to gain access to the info
Which would be rather hypocritical wouldn’t it?

I can however tell you that the pool in question DOES offer women only sessions. As do most other pools in the borough.

But as others have stated, this is a privately hired event and was not organised by the pool.

it’s once a month, and every trans person, self ID or otherwise, who uses these sessions instead of women’s or general sessions is one more trans person not encroaching on women’s only spaces.

I don’t know what you want.
You would complain if trans woman are allowed in to women’s sessions because of self ID
Yet you complain when they are given their own session

And as a PP stated (and got flamed for) you rarely see men only sessions, and imagine the uproar if you did.

Not to mention that keeping the contact name and email visible in your OP is extremely harmful

Yes, we had a women only session which started to include transwomen. Lovely people, but not women, and several regulars (older women) then felt uncomfortable in the changing rooms and stopped coming.
I also heard among our Muslim community that as soon as one transwoman joined, the women who needed single sex access all stopped going swimming at all. It doesn’t just affect the immediate group. If (eg Muslim) women believe there’s a chance a man will come in they won’t take the risk. I’m sure that’s true for other women too

Exactly

I'll remember that next time I send my son to school, afterschool, summer camps, sports camp.

And so you should - if school, afterschool, summer camps, sports camp do not have clear and appropriate safeguarding policies available for you to see, and designated Safeguarding leadership staff, and all staff DBS's with appropriate safeguarding training.

Do they?

My children do all of those things and at every single one of them there has been the possibility of staying/watching/dropping in unannounced/being involved/coming early or arriving late ...and the same for other parents...so creating the sense of openness and transparency and the recognition of the importance of parental involvement and scrutiny.

An organisation that hard line says no parents allowed, no way to be contacted, no way to observe interactions...is demonstrating a lack of understanding of the position they put themselves in of risk of false allegations at the very very least.

This ☝️☝️☝️
Goodness, reading some of the responses….🤦🏻‍♀️

Do you have any answer to the questions you’ve been asked? You said “no chance” if parents weren’t allowed to watch from the gallery. They aren’t. They have to wait in the changing rooms or go home. So is it still “no chance” for you?

Any one fancy some pie I've got a new flavour Maple And Pecan and one i made from a 70s recipe Pecans In Espresso.

Weirdly they have exactly the same flavour and smell about them.

Anyone...ooh maybe not I think they've spoilt and gone rancid.

You send your son to school hard events that allow them to be undressed for swimming with unchecked and unlicensed random people and no parents allowed inside? Wow, that’s crazy. In the schools I work in there are very very strict rules about who can work with the children/who has access to the kids. Only those employed by the school with an enhanced DBS on the update service are allowed to work with the children!

For the avoidance of doubt, I don’t see any poster here having a problem with adults only trans sessions

what we are questioning is what safeguarding is in place which is the question that should be asked for any mixed age mixed sex organised activity isn’t it?

This is a private booking, yes.

It is an open invitation event though.

Please do not get this confused. The booking is private but the attendees are not necessarily known to anyone present. There are safeguarding issues that should be highlighted.

If you resort to shaming parents for pointing out there is some questions to be answered, who benefits from that?

No groups should ever be exempt from safeguarding.

Who benefits from dismissing safeguarding issues?

You said “no chance” if parents weren’t allowed to watch from the gallery. They aren’t. They have to wait in the changing rooms or go home
I said no chance if they were told to go off shopping or home, Ive always watched from the gallery taking my kids to swim sessions.
Somebody upthread said they don't have a gallery, they've always had to wait in the changing rooms.
I personally wouldn't like that, but clearly not everywhere has the choice of a gallery.
If you're not comfortable letting your child swim alone though, surely you just wouldn't let them anyway? Regardless of what session it was.

Absolutely.

And also if trans only sessions (private or otherwise) are now allowed, that should mean that women only sessions should be allowed - and by that I mean natal females and not those who say they are by virtue or self-identifying into it.

I genuinely have no issue in a private swim session for who ever they like - great for them. If they're adults. ( I do think specifying what those with breasts wear and deeming a rash vest or tshirt necessary is a bit odd and unusual but..)

However, I think the naivety around safeguarding is a risk. It is potentially reputationally damaging at minimum.

(I would be surprised if a private hire can set their own terms out with normal ratios/ages/numbers etc. I know for a birthday party there were all sorts of rules about non swimmers, children under 8, numbers in the pool etc )

As for trans people having their own session, and demonstrating a good understanding of why that option being available to other self defined and boundaries groups is important. Great! Crack on!

I think you know well that is not what I am saying.

My child does not swim undressed. I support him to change in to his swimwear and then he goes to his lesson.

I'm pretty disgusted that people are so adamantly suggesting a swimming facility and a registered charity are colluding to provide access to children in this way.

w and I say this from the most respectful way I can taf - Someone actually wrote these words and thought - yay great plan, no problems here.

And in other news Catholic parents thought sending their little boys to be trained as altar boys was an awesome plan with no risks whatsoever.

No one is so super obviously definitely safe that safeguarding considerations shouldn't apply to them.

I was asking who would be interested in the event.
I would not be for the reasons I posted, as detailed in the event description.
I would not allow my child to attend - for those same reasons.
It would make no difference to me if it were a trans+ group, a holiday/vacation care group for school kids, or a private birthday party.
The information detailed raises red flags and I would not be comfortable with an underage child attending when a parent can’t stay, they would be locked in, and they would have no way of phoning out if there was a problem.
Would you seriously be ok with letting a child/minor attend such a session with adult strangers?