Trans Swimming sessions

[DaveDave]

Just saw the below event advertised at my local pool. How come this is ok but we can't have biologically female only swimming sessions? I'm annoyed, not because of the event, but because it seems impossible to have female only swimming without being accused of being transphobic.

"Been hoping for a swimming event that's only for trans, non-binary, and/or intersex people? Well, here it is!

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring. Whether you want to swim laps, float about, or just hang out, you're very welcome. We want these sessions to be accessible to as many people who need them, so if you need a carer who is cisgender to attend with you they are welcome to come along. Parents/guardians are welcome to come and wait in the changing rooms but will not be allowed in the pool or on the poolside.

VENUE: The venue will be given to you during booking to ensure privacy. Please do not advertise this information. You can arrive 15 minutes prior to our swimming session starting, but please note that if you arrive more than 15 minutes late you may be locked out. There is very little phone reception by the pool so you may not be able to get in touch with anyone to let you into the building.

CHANGING FACILITIES: The changing room is gender neutral, wheelchair accessible, and has individual changing and shower cubicles. Before swimming you'll have 15 mins to get ready, and 30 mins at the end.

AGE RANGE: This event is for all ages, but if you're under 18 you'll need to get a consent form signed. Just let us know when you're booking and we'll send you one to bring filled in on the day. Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered. If you have [insert word you're comfortable using for your chest/boobs/breast tissue] you'll need to have your chest covered too. A rash vest would be best, but if you don't have one or can't afford one a light weight t-shirt is also acceptable.

BOOKING: To book, or ask any questions, contact [email protected]. If you are disabled and need a cisgender carer to attend with you please let me know during booking.

COST: This event is free to attend but as a charity we welcome donations. You can donate on our website

www.rainbow-project.org/donate/ or there will be a donation bucket available at the event.

(redacted)

Small lifeguarded pools are safer and our kids have been to private hire pool birthday parties with the birthday family adults (not people we had ever met bar one parent) and lifeguards in attendance. And yes, we had to sign a consent form!

What age were your kids at this time, may I ask?

This will probably get ignored, but I used to attend family swim sessions organised by a charity for families with family members with ASD or ASC, if you prefer. These were advertised via a newsletter and social media. These were free to attend and were at local leisure centre. No lists were checked as we went in but charity workers were at the session and knew most of us or would go and chat. It wasn’t specified under 18 children and accompanying adults. There was a range of ages as obviously the needs of anyone with ASD varies, some young adults were there with a parent or carer who were clearly late teens/ sub 25, as well as under 10s, and probably many under age 8.

These sessions were needed/ nice to have as everyone understood there would be ‘strange’ clothing, ear defenders and stimming etc in all its varied forms and nobody would judge, might move out of hitting distance but not judge.

The centre was open to the public so people could, in theory wander poolside or sit in the sauna. But we weren’t locked in and staff were DBS checked.

The point being, this was run for a ‘community’ who were used to be stared at, used to being asked to leave venues, used to being told clubs weren’t running so they wouldn’t return. Not everyone had ASD but were connected to someone who did. They wouldn’t (well I guess there will always be those who the exception)judge or mock. So I would guess that this would be the same for parents or family members who are prepared to take their child to a trans swim session. Surely they should at least be allowed poolside to be there for support?

So how’s your campaign for banning unsupervised children from public swim sessions going Datun?

Because as you know, right now, children aged 8 and upwards can and do change and swim without parental supervision all over the UK, in mixed sessions with totally unknown and unchecked adults present in numbers.

And you know that many times there are bad outcomes from that massive safeguarding loophole.

What are you doing to change national guidance on this, and make those many, many parents aware that they are absolutely clueless about safeguarding.

Your main concern is safeguarding of children, so go for it. You will have a massively bigger impact on reducing harm by taking action where massively larger numbers of children are at risk very frequently.

(I’m assuming you’re also emailing this specific charity organisation with your concerns too, so that any children attending will be optimally safeguarded to your satisfaction)

You need to start a campaign against every swimming pool then. I just looked at the swim rules for a number of random pools and all allow unsupervised children (varying ages) to swim.

All these pools did have safeguarding policies on their site (and chances are the pool in question does too). I specifically looked at 3 in Belfast amd they each had safeguarding info available also.

Did you miss the part where parental consent is required in writing for every under 18 attending? So that’s a decision by the parents then. Good-oh.

Yeah that part is weird.

Surely we could all identify as trans and attend the session?

I understand what people are saying about the equivalent just being a regular public swim session where kids and adults swim together. It's true that happens all the time.

But would anyone here really allow their child to go to a public swim session where parents were not allowed to watch or get in the pool with their kids? Particularly one where the organisers had felt it necessary to stipulate that genitals have to be covered? Why would it be necessary to state that?

Are there really public swimming pools which have public open swim sessions where they is absolutely no provision to be able to watch from a gallery/seating area/cafe? Because I have never come across one?

Oh dear. Did I reply as though this kind of discussion happens all too often?

Interesting that that is the sentence you chose to engage with!

The point being, this was run for a ‘community’ who were used to be stared at, used to being asked to leave venues, used to being told clubs weren’t running so they wouldn’t return. Not everyone had ASD but were connected to someone who did. They wouldn’t (well I guess there will always be those who the exception)judge or mock. So I would guess that this would be the same for parents or family members who are prepared to take their child to a trans swim session.

Surely they should at least be allowed poolside to be there for support?

Yes, quite. That's the bit that's the issue.

And who is trans? What's the criteria there?

Why would you??? That's just weird!

Oh dear, did you try to make it look like you were being name-called on this thread and then someone called you on it?

Interesting how you tagged that on the end of your very long post!

Oh ffs. The temptation gets ever stronger to say ok fuck it, you know what, you learn from bitter experience and you pick up the pieces when you discover that actually the old farts actually saw the oncoming disaster.

However as also from bitter experience, I know that those who enable the disasters a) don't give a shit about the people hurt in the process and will do bugger all about it and learn bugger all from it, and b) identify as it not being anything to do with them.

Which means those of us with a grip on a sense of responsibility are stuck.

And this is a prime example of whataboutery.

Don't look at the issue we're discussing, because there are other issues that you should be concentrating on. And if you're not concentrating on them, then this issue is irrelevant.

You doing this, strawberry, does not make those children safer.

I know you're sneering about Lang Cleg. But I learnt a lot from her.

One of the most significant issues with transgenderism is the creation of a sacred cast.

That's how you're getting rapists in women's prisons, men changing with female teenagers in changing rooms, and women unable to ask for a same-sex health professional. But only if they adopt the sacred cast identity.

It's not about the gender identity, it's about their immunity. The Teflon coating when it comes to these issues.

Normal rapists don't get to go in women's prisons, only if they've got a certain gender identity. The sacred cast.

Normally, people would be shouting from the rooftops if parents were explicitly banned from a swim session involving strange adults.

You think only weirdos would do that?

question asked and answered.

Because as you know, right now, children aged 8 and upwards can and do change and swim without parental supervision all over the UK, in mixed sessions with totally unknown and unchecked adults present in numbers.

And you know that many times there are bad outcomes from that massive safeguarding loophole.

But I thought your argument was that it is totally fine for unsupervised kids to swim without parents overseeing? Have you changed your mind, Strawberry?

If you werent so fixated on the imagined bogey man at this event, imagine the time and energy you would have to focus on the actual bogey men out there. I don't know you from Adam, and maybe you have a long history of campaigning to safeguard children, but I'm confident not many on this thread have and they only mention it when the issue relates to trans people.

Can you not terll the difference between "allowed to swim alone" and you MUST swim alone, you are not allowed to have your parent there?

Really?

Yeah that's the argument of Mermaids. How many safeguarding catastrophies are we up to so far? I've lost count.

'And you know that many times there are bad outcomes from that massive safeguarding loophole.'

So you agree that there is an issue with unsupervised swimming sessions and in fact compared it to the session this thread is about yet you are happy with this particular private session to go ahead? Why is that?

Ah! So ending with a conclusion is now also suspect?

OK!

But do remember, in amongst your self righteousness, you are the one posting passionately for some circumstances, some people, specific cohorts to be exempted from normal safeguarding.

No matter how much you spin and deflect what you are championing is a closed swimming session including minors and adults not known to them with no direct parental oversight or, apparently, the usual basic safeguarding, risk assessments etc being easily available.

Not a pool party. Not a public session. A closed session with specific exemptions, ie parents but not caregivers.

Why wouldn't that ring alarm bells?

It’s kind of impressive that you chastise me (scolding women anyone?) for perceived whataboutery (that is, in fact, the main issue of this insanely long thread) and then go straight into rapists in women’s prisons.

Parents frequently do not attend or have direct eyes on swim sessions their children go to - numerous examples have been provided on this thread and your choice to disregard them does not make them go away.

It’s not abnormal, it’s not unusual, and it’s not a de facto safeguarding risk, no matter how many times you insist that it is.

Trans people and organisations are neither a sacred caste nor a de facto safeguarding risk. They’re just people and organisations, like the girl guides, your kids mates parents, the youth club, the big local gym or dance school, whatever.

And sometimes… just now and again, it’s no bad thing for this board to get some rigorous challenge on the prevailing narrative that it’s ok to have a pop at anything and everything trans people do.

You are missing that at all other mixed sex, mixed gender and all ages parents are allowed in the pool

It's a private swim session for age 8 up with parents banned from the poolside.

Strip the sacred caste away and that's what you have.

Don't bang on about the vastly bigger threat that men pose to women and children in public swimming sessions, week in week out, and have done for years, and that children still have unfettered access to, unsupervised, from age 8, with no control or tracking whatsoever on adults in the changing and swimming areas and say the above is ok.

Anyone could set up that session.

I'm in Ireland. We are very very familiar with safeguarding scandals- none of which required anyone to pretend to be trans.

Not one single person has said anyone should be exempt from safeguarding standards.

What makes you assume there are no safeguarding or risk assessments available?