Trans Swimming sessions

[DaveDave]

Just saw the below event advertised at my local pool. How come this is ok but we can't have biologically female only swimming sessions? I'm annoyed, not because of the event, but because it seems impossible to have female only swimming without being accused of being transphobic.

"Been hoping for a swimming event that's only for trans, non-binary, and/or intersex people? Well, here it is!

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring. Whether you want to swim laps, float about, or just hang out, you're very welcome. We want these sessions to be accessible to as many people who need them, so if you need a carer who is cisgender to attend with you they are welcome to come along. Parents/guardians are welcome to come and wait in the changing rooms but will not be allowed in the pool or on the poolside.

VENUE: The venue will be given to you during booking to ensure privacy. Please do not advertise this information. You can arrive 15 minutes prior to our swimming session starting, but please note that if you arrive more than 15 minutes late you may be locked out. There is very little phone reception by the pool so you may not be able to get in touch with anyone to let you into the building.

CHANGING FACILITIES: The changing room is gender neutral, wheelchair accessible, and has individual changing and shower cubicles. Before swimming you'll have 15 mins to get ready, and 30 mins at the end.

AGE RANGE: This event is for all ages, but if you're under 18 you'll need to get a consent form signed. Just let us know when you're booking and we'll send you one to bring filled in on the day. Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered. If you have [insert word you're comfortable using for your chest/boobs/breast tissue] you'll need to have your chest covered too. A rash vest would be best, but if you don't have one or can't afford one a light weight t-shirt is also acceptable.

BOOKING: To book, or ask any questions, contact [email protected]. If you are disabled and need a cisgender carer to attend with you please let me know during booking.

COST: This event is free to attend but as a charity we welcome donations. You can donate on our website

www.rainbow-project.org/donate/ or there will be a donation bucket available at the event.

(redacted)

😂No, pet.

Have you nothing better to say than calling people names?

Normal sane MN poster here, not a TRA, and please don’t use that to chase people off. It’s a cheap shot, and smacks of weak arguments you can’t defend.

ResisterRex

The exact opposite. A quick advanced search on MN will show that I work in education and give you a rough idea at what level but what won’t show is the National committee I chair which is in the front line of children’s safeguarding. It would be very outing but feel free to PM and we can compare the qualifications and experience I bring to this sector

Sorry Boiled. Didn’t see your message before as I was typing.

It’s so tough when others think we are pearl-clutching and being unkind when actually we are talking from experience and want to prevent and protect.

Having a look at the org's trustee report for last year, which is quite hard to find as they are under a different name 'Rainbow Health LImited' on the CC NI site.

No mention of safeguarding whatsoever.

Their 'youth' services are for 16+.

This is a massively different demographic than 'all ages'.

www.charitycommissionni.org.uk/charity-details/?regId=100064&subId=0

Demonstrate it then. Show evidence.

There has been a constant refusal from some posters to acknowledge the fact parents are banned from a mixed sex, mixed age event where natal females may be topless and where there's no mobile reception.

Normal standards don't allow situations like this. Ever.

Weak arguments? Hmm, ok.

Absolutely no way will I be PM'ing. Nice try though! 😂

So why would you need me to be polite then? It’s not usually wanted in these parts. Robust challenge is the MO, so you’ll have to make do or move on if impolite offends your sensibilities.

Several posters are working very hard to avoid the very simple points and frankly uncontentious points about child safety. Instead, there are plenty of deflections, accusations and ad homs.

It's quite tediously familiar.

It isn't. I think it's transgender advocates trying to use women's language in an attempt to, I don't know what, get one over? DARVO? Who knows. It's not their language, so they're not going to get it right

The thing they don't realise is that safeguarding is unequivocal. There is no nuance, no spectrum. It's wholly and completely objective.

And it applies to everyone, all the time.

If you can find a loophole, it's a safeguarding fail. It doesn't matter if there are other loopholes somewhere else, it doesn't matter if you're not talking about those other loopholes, it doesn't matter if you can look at it sideways and think it might not be a loophole on another day, in another time, in different weather.

If there's a loophole, it's a safeguarding fail.

Pretending it's not, is a safeguarding fail.

Taking it personally about you, or the group you're in, is a safeguarding fail.

it's black and white.

Come on, tone policing is allowed if you're the "wrong sort" surely you know that?! 😬

Pet, I see patronising has started

Thought not.

Safeguarding is not thinking up ever more ludicrous ‘what if’ scenarios and then writing ineffective risk assessments about what might happen. If any risk assessment came across my desk and the mitigation was “parents are observing” it would be sent back in seconds for a re-think.

This is a voluntary event. Parental consent is required for under 18. Qualified lifeguards are in place (this training includes level
2 safeguarding)
the organiser will have the name & email address of all participants
It likely has low numbers of participants with likely groups of people who are know as part of a community
The changing room is single cubicles and under 18 can be supervised

This is very low risk …. Much lower risk than a public swim session which if you knew anything about safeguarding and predatory behaviour planned or situational, you’d know.

Safeguarding is about assessing actual risk and then mitigating for it.

Its the insistance in finding a loophole without actually having all the info you need to hand. The OP posted a cut and paste from (I assume) the Facebook event. The ad invites questions via email prior to booking. Parents who wish to do so can make contact with the group, make enquires and have any questions or concerns they have answered. Why must the organisers answer every single question in their ad? Who ever does that?

Ah, DARVO is out. Congrats Datun, you’re getting close to a full house on GC bingo.

Keep em coming. I don’t think we’ve done anti-women, women-hating or man yet.

Point remains, any random adult can get in a changing room or a pool with numerous unsupervised children any weekend across the UK.

Meanwhile, here you all are, determinedly attacking a third-space created for and by trans people (aka that thing you keep asking trans people to do) and claiming to be entirely motivated by safeguarding children.

Strawberry fields do you have links to the organization? If you do you should really talk them into making this session R18 or possibly R16 and then maybe doing a separate session for trans teens. Forget the under 12s, prepubescent kids who identify as trans don’t have quite the same barriers to swimming in general sessions anyway, and you’d have to set up a session separate to the teens and adults and there probably wouldn’t be the demand. Removing under 12s also makes it less likely the organization will have to deal with poor swimmers too short to stand up in the pool. It would just make the safeguarding so much easier to put in place. The idea of private sessions for trans identifying people is great. But putting teens, kids (under 12s/prepubescent) and adults together in one session is just going to be hell for the organizers. Things will go wrong. God forbid hopefully nothing as serious as sexual assault on a minor. I had a list of minor situations that are very likely to occur on an earlier post. And when one of these annoying things happens, on some level, the organization will be responsible. The organization needs legal advice as to their level of legal responsibility for unaccompanied minors of different ages in this situation, both in the case where the parent has dropped off the child/teen and in the case where the parent is in the building but banned from the pool/poolside.
Look, I’ve been the responsable adult in charge of groups of kids/teens at public swimming pools during normal operating conditions (holiday camps). It’s different to if the same kids were dropped off at the pool by their parents. As a representative of the organization, I was responsible for the safety of those kids above and beyond the responsibility borne by the lifeguards and pool management. If an organization is selling/distributing tickets to children for a event in a pool, particularly when parents are excluded (and yes they are excluded even if they are sitting in the changing rooms), then it’s a reasonable assumption that the organization will be responsible for the safety of the participants. When you’ve hired out the pool and locked the door it’s no longer a public space. The organization is in charge. Parents will assume the organization will be looking after their children’s safety. It’s not enough to say that parents have given permission in this scenario. The organization needs to either assume responsibility for underage participants or ban them altogether and create a separate event for a specific age group where they feel they can safely assume that responsibility.

BedTaker
Every swimming pool I’ve ever been to explicitly says that females must not be topless and that swim suits must cover appropriately. They might not expressively say genitalia but it’s implied. The trans community are pilloried for their TWAW/TMAM approach so it could be misunderstood in that community that this session would allow TM who haven’t had top surgery to be topless. This group have gone out of their way to address this and not allow this and they are jumped on for that!!
Can’t win

*Ah, DARVO is out. Congrats Datun, you’re getting close to a full house on GC bingo.

Well I did say it was a feeble attempt. I'm not sure why women talking about safeguarding is a demonstration of the Emperor's new Clothes. And, I suspect, nor are you.

Keep em coming. I don’t think we’ve done anti-women, women-hating or man yet.

Anti safeguarding not enough?

I don’t know how people are managing to make this complicated. Adults are inviting children to an event that has mixed attendance adults and children, and specifically banning their parents from being present.

That would be insanely dodgy even if it weren’t affiliated with a community that is very attractive to child predators due to a cavalier attitude to safeguarding, pervasive creepy talk about “glitter families” making it easy for ill intentioned adults to alienate kids from their real families, and the overlap of autogynephilia with other paraphilias including autopedophilia.

This is all very sensible advice. I wonder if it is worth a wee email to the organisation to point it all out. They are quite likely just unaware, seeing as they don't seem accustomed to catering for/working with children.

What makes you think they are not doing that? This is an organised event, by a charity, in an established venue, not Ted down the road organising something in the local reservoir! This is not their first event, it's running at least a year.

This is a good post. This is roughly how I would structure it if I was running this. I’d probably start with 18+ sessions, run a few, and then start a separate session for 12-17 year olds.

Are you for real??? 🤣