Trans Swimming sessions

[DaveDave]

Just saw the below event advertised at my local pool. How come this is ok but we can't have biologically female only swimming sessions? I'm annoyed, not because of the event, but because it seems impossible to have female only swimming without being accused of being transphobic.

"Been hoping for a swimming event that's only for trans, non-binary, and/or intersex people? Well, here it is!

To ensure privacy we have booked an entire public pool so it's just for us! Apart from the lifeguards, the rest of the building will be empty too, so there's no need to worry about which changing room to use or people staring. Whether you want to swim laps, float about, or just hang out, you're very welcome. We want these sessions to be accessible to as many people who need them, so if you need a carer who is cisgender to attend with you they are welcome to come along. Parents/guardians are welcome to come and wait in the changing rooms but will not be allowed in the pool or on the poolside.

VENUE: The venue will be given to you during booking to ensure privacy. Please do not advertise this information. You can arrive 15 minutes prior to our swimming session starting, but please note that if you arrive more than 15 minutes late you may be locked out. There is very little phone reception by the pool so you may not be able to get in touch with anyone to let you into the building.

CHANGING FACILITIES: The changing room is gender neutral, wheelchair accessible, and has individual changing and shower cubicles. Before swimming you'll have 15 mins to get ready, and 30 mins at the end.

AGE RANGE: This event is for all ages, but if you're under 18 you'll need to get a consent form signed. Just let us know when you're booking and we'll send you one to bring filled in on the day. Please bear in mind that we do not currently allow cisgender parents and guardians to be in the pool or on the poolside.

DRESS CODE: As always, genitals covered. If you have [insert word you're comfortable using for your chest/boobs/breast tissue] you'll need to have your chest covered too. A rash vest would be best, but if you don't have one or can't afford one a light weight t-shirt is also acceptable.

BOOKING: To book, or ask any questions, contact [email protected]. If you are disabled and need a cisgender carer to attend with you please let me know during booking.

COST: This event is free to attend but as a charity we welcome donations. You can donate on our website

www.rainbow-project.org/donate/ or there will be a donation bucket available at the event.

(redacted)

Yes. Gendered Intelligence:

twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1262391110816628736

'Mumsnet has unearthed Gendered Intelligence's 'trans only' swimming sessions, from ages '8 to 25', from earlier this year. Prior to this they rans trans youth camps, featuring Aimee Challenor, who has left both the Lib Dems and the Green Party, due to their links with paedophiles'

I've not found the relevant MN thread yet.

Page still up on GI:

genderedintelligence.co.uk/swimming

'Trans-only swimming sessions for 8-25 year olds.

Wear what you want to swim, so long as your bottom half is covered.

Changing rooms will be separated into children and adults and a large youth work team will be present.'

Jessica Yaniv also tried to stage an 'all ages' swimming event:

www.vancouverisawesome.com/local-news/jessica-yaniv-langley-topless-swim-trans-activist-bc-1944804

'Yaniv told Glacier Media she only wanted to put the Township of Langley on the record for accepting the “all-bodies” swim, which would not include parents and be open to anyone above 12 years of age. Clothing above the waist would be optional.

“Caretakers will be prohibited from attending these events as it’s considered safe and inclusive,” wrote Yaniv to council.'

More on Yaniv's 'all bodies' (sorry, not 'all ages', I misremembered) swim:

twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1149214169864048640

I’ve organised a lot of swimming events in private hires, and where there is the potential for adults and children to mix requires a lot of safeguarding consideration. When our children’s sessions ran adjacent to adult sessions we had to ensure that they weren’t in changing rooms at the same time (even though parents could be in there too) because of the communal nature of the facilities.

Excluding parents from poolside during a mixed adult / child session is just such a massive safeguarding red flag.

It is not the job of lifeguards (who are often young and on minimum wage) to police the activities of adults.

Either this group should specify over 16s or 18s only, or they should allow parents / carers poolside.

@Helleofabore
Red alert cannot be said enough!!

I agree!

Most public swimming sessions in the UK allow children aged 8 and upwards to change and swim without parental supervision.

The kids are loose in there, with just lifeguards and other centre staff.

How come that’s ok and isn’t a massive safeguarding red flag?

There are unsupervised kids all over the place in our local pool, and no viewing areas or requirement for parents to be poolside. You’re not even allowed to be poolside if you’re not swimming.

Actually Strawberry many children have been abused in swimming pools over the years. It is well known that risk exists in that context. Most girls will have experienced harassment, voyeurism and worse. The problem is not the pool, but the men who use it.

Yes, obviously there are issues with men’s behaviour in public pool sessions.

My point is that this private session is in line with public sessions in allowing unsupervised children to change and swim in a mixed age and sex session with lifeguard supervision.

If the public sessions are considered OK, but the private trans session not, then why?

Up until the last few years facilities were generally separated by sex. Now it seems this is no longer necessarily true. And this particular session says anyone can go anywhere. Therefore increasing the risk.

Allowing children to be unsupervised is not the same as deliberately excluding parents. This has been pointed out several times.

“Allowing children to be unsupervised is not the same as deliberately excluding parents. This has been pointed out several times.”

Almost like a poster hasn’t bothered to read the thread …

Can you confirm with absolute confidence that your pool does not allow a parent to be on the pool edge monitoring their child but not swimming?

That sounds like no swimming pool I have been to.

I’ve RTFT.

A parent who isn’t comfortable with having their kid swim unsupervised has the choice to not let them swim in that session.

Thousands of kids swim and change unsupervised in mixed age and sex environments every day in the UK. I’m questioning why, as a culture and community, that’s considered ok for public pools, but for this private session it’s not.

Adults who aren’t swimming aren’t permitted poolside in our local pool with child safeguarding cited as reason. They frown on adults sitting poolside watching unaccompanied children. Which seems like a reasonable precaution to me.

I’m just saying there’s a huge amount of unsupervised child swimming and changing going on in public pools, so that seems like an unreasonable thing to criticise so heavily here.

“I’m just saying there’s a huge amount of unsupervised child swimming and changing going on in public pools, so that seems like an unreasonable thing to criticise so heavily here.”

Then you will know that people have already pointed out that there is a difference between deliberately separating a parent (who doesn’t have a trans identity) from a scenario with such a wide age range and mixed sex, and giving parents a choice of attending to supervise if they want.

It has been covered in the thread.

And if you cannot see the safeguarding red flags, that might be an issue you need to address yourself.

A parent who isn’t comfortable with having their kid swim unsupervised has the choice to not let them swim in that session.

And a parent who is still deserves for their child to be covered under a safeguarding policy. If the safeguarding policy of the company is just to let the parents decide if it’s safe enough, there is no safeguarding policy. The company - a registered charity has a responsibility.

Thousands of kids swim and change unsupervised in mixed age and sex environments every day in the UK. I’m questioning why, as a culture and community, that’s considered ok for public pools, but for this private session it’s not.

Because for a start, parents aren’t being deliberately excluded. Second, there is no “closed doors” policy in these general scenarios. Third, it’s not a deliberately engineered situation of children left alone with strange adults like this event is. And finally, the general situations you describe still pose a risk and organisations are still required to mitigate that risk as much as possible.

"No need to worry about which changing room to use". If the changing room is gender neutral with cubicles anyway, why would anyone worry which changing room to use. I suppose they could mean they're using usually separate changing rooms as gender neutral, but that type don't usually have all cubicles.

They've got in a bit of a tangle with the upper body wear too. Don't think TW will be impressed by being told to wear a t-shirt or rash vest and not show off their nice new bikini! They may mean if you're female ID-ing as male but have mangled the language enough they have no way of saying that.

Agree with the safeguarding concerns. They just specifically invited a vulnerable group of unaccompanied children and any adult who chooses to lie to attend, to a specific session, and where it's likely people will chat more than just normal public swimming.

Very different to general swimming where you don't know children will be unaccompanied, you don't usually know which children /are/ unaccompanied - once they're confident swimmers most parents don't trail round after them the whole time but are keeping an eye out - and being chatted to by a strange adult will usually be seen by kids as a red flag.

By the way, in the UK what age are parents saying they are leaving their children to go to a general swimming session alone?

Because it would help with transparency to know this.

By alone, I mean drop off before the front door and wave goodbye.

There’s a consent form to be signed before any under 18s are allowed to go at all, which is more than most local pools require.

Unless you’ve actually seen that form, and any supporting policies from that organisation, and can evidence that they’re less robust than policies at public swimming sessions, there’s no grounds for assuming an absence of proper safeguarding for these sessions.

And if you cannot see that this is a valid comparison to reflect on, that might be a prejudice you need to address in yourself.

The policy in most big chains of leisure hectares in the UK is age 8 and over for unaccompanied, so long as they are competent swimmers.

A quick Google will find you ample examples and policy guidance documents at national and local level in the UK. Or visiting any public pool for a swim during the weekend open sessions.

No.

As has been pointed out several times on the thread the burden should be, has to be, the other way round. There should be NO presumption of appropriate safeguarding measures until they are demonstrated and enacted. To do that is a failure of safeguarding.

They could quite clearly indicate their safeguarding procedures in the information provided. They don’t.

They could quite clearly indicate their safeguarding policy on their website. They don’t.

They could have a clear designated safeguarding officer. They don’t.

Why do you assume appropriate measures are in place? What gives you such confidence?

What did worry me about the consent form was that the child just needs to bring it with them on the day.
So the child can sign up for the session, receive the consent form, fake a parental signature and bring it with them.
There seems to be no requirement for the parent to hand over the form.

That said, our local pool allows over 8s in unsupervised with mixed changing facilities (as in cubicles). There is a viewing area above the pool so you can shout down if needed.

Actually my local pool here in the UK says no one under 8 to be directly (arms reach) to be unsupervised in general swim.

I find this ludicrous coming from another country where there are frequent drownings and most public swimming pools have a higher age limit to that ‘arm’s length’ policy. My previous local pool in that country would not accept under 14 year olds without a parent directly supervising for general swim sessions.

It is a completely different scenario for school, after school and holiday programs, and lessons or squad sessions.

But frankly, if you are a parent and you do not know the standard safeguarding red flags, I consider that to be rather more of an issue than me not knowing swim ages for particular pools. But yeah… you do you.