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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do you speak up without being called transphobic

314 replies

Enterusername111333 · 30/12/2022 01:04

I just feel so lost... I don't know how to voice my opinion without accusations so I just take the easy option. Where does it end?

OP posts:
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6
Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 13:28

Sorry deleted the bit i wrote about sterotypes, basically i rejected them as they just seemed so bloody arbitrary.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 31/12/2022 13:39

OP to answer your question the best I can I propose 2 techniques

Sandwich, something like this

  1. Certainly I think that...
  2. But I do worry that...
  3. Of course that doesn't mean...

e.g.

  1. Certainly I think that keeping transwomen safe from sexual assault and physical violence whilst imprisoned is a legitimate and important aim
  2. But I do worry that putting transwomen in general into women's jails is not a reasonable solution for the women inmates, especially but not limited to their cellmate.
  3. Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything to see that transwoman are punished for breaking laws in an appropriate and humane way - I just strongly feel that putting them in a woman's jail is not the right solution.

and asking questions that promote critical thinking e.g.

I'm trying to teach my lesbian daughter about consent, boundaries and sexual health. Do you think it is more important that she should learn about how to pleasure a penis and that she should be on long term contraception because it is impossible to know which of the women she sleeps with might impregnate her, or that she is taught about biology and contraception accurately and told that her sexual orientation is an important boundary which should be respected by other people and that whilst it is certainly ok to be bisexual and choose to sleep with both men and women (or experiment to see if you enjoy something) it is also perfectly reasonable to not be bisexual and choose to limit your sexual partners by their sex which is to say their biological sex. You may be ok with women including those who would describe themselves as afab nbs, or afab transmen and still not wish to sleep with men or amab nbs. The point is YOU get to set your boundaries and choose who to sleep with and not sleep with. NO ONE is entitled to sex with you.

nilsmousehammer · 31/12/2022 13:55

I'm trying to teach my lesbian daughter about consent, boundaries and sexual health. Do you think it is more important that she should learn about how to pleasure a penis...

Er, I think it would start with 'is it more important that she should learn that she has no right to expect sex to be a mutually pleasurable thing she seeks out to enjoy and desire? No right to a sexual orientation? Or should I teach her that her desires and her feelings mean nothing, because she was born with female biology. And there are men who will identify as women, and as lesbians, and then wish for her as a homosexual female to provide access to her body because her homosexuality validates their identity, and her biology matters when it suits the male but she as a female must never mention out loud knowing that biology exists?'

I am not sure any parent wishes to raise their daughter to be a silent, compliant therapeutic sex aid, who expects no right to choose, to have an orientation or her own, or does nothing naughty like gatekeeping her body from males who wish to use it to meet their needs. And who have no time or care for hers.

Are we really going to send our gay daughters out to be abuse victims looking for somewhere to happen? And are we going to do the same to our straight daughters, or is this a special burden on the homosexual ones?

Helleofabore · 31/12/2022 13:58

nilsmousehammer · 31/12/2022 13:55

I'm trying to teach my lesbian daughter about consent, boundaries and sexual health. Do you think it is more important that she should learn about how to pleasure a penis...

Er, I think it would start with 'is it more important that she should learn that she has no right to expect sex to be a mutually pleasurable thing she seeks out to enjoy and desire? No right to a sexual orientation? Or should I teach her that her desires and her feelings mean nothing, because she was born with female biology. And there are men who will identify as women, and as lesbians, and then wish for her as a homosexual female to provide access to her body because her homosexuality validates their identity, and her biology matters when it suits the male but she as a female must never mention out loud knowing that biology exists?'

I am not sure any parent wishes to raise their daughter to be a silent, compliant therapeutic sex aid, who expects no right to choose, to have an orientation or her own, or does nothing naughty like gatekeeping her body from males who wish to use it to meet their needs. And who have no time or care for hers.

Are we really going to send our gay daughters out to be abuse victims looking for somewhere to happen? And are we going to do the same to our straight daughters, or is this a special burden on the homosexual ones?

Thank you nilsmouse. Thank you for your constant clear headed posts!

Brefugee · 31/12/2022 14:00

And the gender stereotyping that leads to people feeling they are in the wrong body anyway?

well, this, all day long. I really thought we 2nd wavers had got this one finally put to bed. But no. "girl mode" is apparently a thing. It's a mode i don't generally have. But then nor is "boy mode" so where does that leave me?

Grumpy. Annoyed. Frustrated. Glad I'm not 40 years younger.

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 14:04

is it more important that she should learn that she has no right to expect sex to be a mutually pleasurable thing she seeks out to enjoy and desire? No right to a sexual orientation? Or should I teach her that her desires and her feelings mean nothing, because she was born with female biology. And there are men who will identify as women, and as lesbians, and then wish for her as a homosexual female to provide access to her body because her homosexuality validates their identity, and her biology matters when it suits the male but she as a female must never mention out loud knowing that biology exists?'

@nilsmousehammer Id really like to do that in bigly letters but I'd be banished for ever to the naughty corner that is netmums.(is that a thing? Or have i just imagined that)

Bit wordy though the mnemonic is going to be a bitch

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 14:06

Brefugee · 31/12/2022 14:00

And the gender stereotyping that leads to people feeling they are in the wrong body anyway?

well, this, all day long. I really thought we 2nd wavers had got this one finally put to bed. But no. "girl mode" is apparently a thing. It's a mode i don't generally have. But then nor is "boy mode" so where does that leave me?

Grumpy. Annoyed. Frustrated. Glad I'm not 40 years younger.

girl mode is only a thing if your a famous wealthy male coming to the end of his good-looking ( all things are relative) as a man years.

Brefugee · 31/12/2022 14:07

Ah thanks, i don't have that subscription, which is why i can't activate it.

FKATondelayo · 31/12/2022 14:08

My DD's generation really doesn't care, they just aren't self conscious in the same way

You mean the generation born with 24 hour social media monitoring, hard core porn, upskirting, spy cameras, choking, revenge porn doesn't really have any boundaries?

No way.

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 14:10

Brefugee · 31/12/2022 14:07

Ah thanks, i don't have that subscription, which is why i can't activate it.

Keep an eye out.It might be on offer in the sales

IcakethereforeIam · 31/12/2022 14:13

Just found this on twitter (thank you Dennis and the original poster) seemed apposite, i hrtft so apologies if it's already been posted:

How do you speak up without being called transphobic
MangyInseam · 31/12/2022 14:20

lieselotte · 31/12/2022 13:17

And the gender stereotyping that leads to people feeling they are in the wrong body anyway?

Why do you have to be a woman to wear make-up and a dress? If a bloke wants to wear make-up and a dress, he can. He doesn't need to call himself a woman and use female loos.

If we stopped all the nonsensical gender stereotyping we wouldn't be in this mess at all. Or at least not so much (given extreme male woman-haters would find some way to get at us).

I don't really think this is true.

It's not about wanting to wear a dress or make-up, fundamentally. It's about wanting, for some reason (which can vary) to be perceived as the other sex. If the social customs associated with that sex were different, that would not change the basic goal.

nilsmousehammer · 31/12/2022 14:20

I'd be banished for ever to the naughty corner that is netmums.

Don't risk it. You're not allowed to swear there.

Brefugee · 31/12/2022 14:27

If we stopped all the nonsensical gender stereotyping we wouldn't be in this mess at all. Or at least not so much (given extreme male woman-haters would find some way to get at us).
I don't really think this is true.
It's not about wanting to wear a dress or make-up, fundamentally. It's about wanting, for some reason (which can vary) to be perceived as the other sex. If the social customs associated with that sex were different, that would not change the basic goal.

Gender and sex are not the same thing. Which is what some of us have been pointing out for at least 4 decades.

Wearing a dress doesn't make you a woman. Wearing dungarees, having body hair and weilding a huge wrench doesn't make you less of a woman.

Gender stereotyping is dangerous rubbish that consigns women to helper roles. Steward(ess) rather than pilot (nothing wrong with being a steward on a plane)
Nurse rather than doctor (very different jobs but you get what i mean?)
Teacher rather than headteacher or professor

Being expected to take on the domestic load, getting zero acknowledgement of it. And then standing aghast as World's Best Dad changes a nappy to rapturous applause.

If we did away with gender roles, expectations and stereotypes - would we have as many trans identified people? And if we did have genuine trans identified people, we would have more resources to help them, if the AGPs and TRAs weren't sucking them up.

MangyInseam · 31/12/2022 14:41

Brefugee · 31/12/2022 14:27

If we stopped all the nonsensical gender stereotyping we wouldn't be in this mess at all. Or at least not so much (given extreme male woman-haters would find some way to get at us).
I don't really think this is true.
It's not about wanting to wear a dress or make-up, fundamentally. It's about wanting, for some reason (which can vary) to be perceived as the other sex. If the social customs associated with that sex were different, that would not change the basic goal.

Gender and sex are not the same thing. Which is what some of us have been pointing out for at least 4 decades.

Wearing a dress doesn't make you a woman. Wearing dungarees, having body hair and weilding a huge wrench doesn't make you less of a woman.

Gender stereotyping is dangerous rubbish that consigns women to helper roles. Steward(ess) rather than pilot (nothing wrong with being a steward on a plane)
Nurse rather than doctor (very different jobs but you get what i mean?)
Teacher rather than headteacher or professor

Being expected to take on the domestic load, getting zero acknowledgement of it. And then standing aghast as World's Best Dad changes a nappy to rapturous applause.

If we did away with gender roles, expectations and stereotypes - would we have as many trans identified people? And if we did have genuine trans identified people, we would have more resources to help them, if the AGPs and TRAs weren't sucking them up.

Yes, I am aware they are not the same thing, thanks.

I don't think it's especially helpful to conflate "gender stereotypes" with differences in cultural practices associated with sex, which are present in all cultures and are very unlikely to ever be wholly extinguished. Nor would people want them to be - sex differences are too important in people's lives not to be expressed culturally.

I certainly think there are some people who feel especially constrained by what they think is required culturally to exist as a male or female person. That may be something of a factor for some, I would say this applies most to teen girls and sometimes teen boys. Though I would also say that in a lot of cases, these kids are projecting a much less flexible approach than actually exists in our culture. There are a heck of a lot of people we all meet in day to day life, and even see in the media, who don't especially conform to that level. If you talk to these kids though, it's almost like they don't see these people. They are hyper-focused.

But overall, what we are really talking about with adult men (and a few women) who want to appear as women has little or nothing to do with an interest in particular cultural markers of femininity. They don't want to wear dresses and lipstick because they have some innate strong interest in dresses and lipstick. They are wanting to be perceived as women - as being of the sex female. The cultural trappings are secondary to that.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/12/2022 15:00

Brefugee · Today 14:27

Re what you said about gender stereotypes and roles -

Seeing as people seem to fall into some sort of gender divisions in different societies and cultures and through different ages, I very much suspect that to some degree these divisions are biologically driven.

Not that I disagree with you that a hairy woman with a wrench and dungarees is also a woman.

DextrousCT · 31/12/2022 15:05

Delphinium20 …woke was term created by Black people to be used by other Black peoples in the US to describe their unique situation of being conscious of the continued legacy of slavery. To be "awoke" to the reality that racism still exists.
Now it's been taken over…
DogsAkimbo ...The word ‘woke’ has been appropriated, and also the word ‘woman.’
Metabigot ...Has any other minority group in history changed the language of the majority group against their will?
nilsmousehammer ...If one group of people can change reality by changing words, then any group of people can change it to something else by changing the words.

When authoritarian systems were challenged and exposed in the 60’s and 70’s, those in power made an instinctive move to regain their social and legal power. One tactic used was to stop hiding their actions behind polite fictions since these were being ripped away by progressives. Liberals exposed the self-serving reasons dictators were propped up to benefit oil companies. The reaction was not to stop but to continue doing the same thing, just out in the open. Feminists exposed the cultural lies and performances forced upon women. Men stopped pretending to put (certain types of) women on pedestals. They behave openly contemptuous instead of hiding their opinion behind a facade of chivalry.

Authoritarians do not admit any brakes on their power. Because men are reductive thinkers, it is all or nothing. Another tactic to regain power was to take the progressive position and turn it about in a demonstration of their absolutist way of thinking. Liberals pointed out negative assumptions behind certain common terms and asserted their power to ‘call people out’ for hurtful phrases. Reactionaries took this notion to its absurd extreme and have thrown it back in our faces that you cannot now name things as you see them. They saw people of color as lesser, and now they can’t say that without pushback. So they found a way to forbid us from saying something we see clearly. Feminists in particular challenged the notion that sex determines public roles; women could be teachers and engineers, mothers and managers. Naturally men have taken the absurdist position that equality means mathematical equality. Remember they are not naturally pragmatic. Therefore the subset of sexual fetishists who push for TWAW are fully supported by the male power structure as a means of clawing back the few gains made by women over the last 40 years.

Any system that faces a threat will react. A successful coping strategy is to adopt some of the DNA of the threat and encapsulate it or include some of its informational content to develop a response, just like some vaccines work. Men in the western world have taken the language of liberalism and feminism and have weaponized it against us. Because women are much more thoughtful and far-sighted thinkers than men, we give some consideration to their position that they do not actually deserve. So by the time women come to a collective realization of the idiocy or harm of what men are doing, the rug has been pulled out from under us.

Men are less thoughtful but much more feral, and have the predator’s ability to react more quickly. Although these immediate issues such as ‘transphobia’ are both crazy and dangerous, at their base they are a distraction. Without collective and forceful action that targets the power structure we will never win. The only thing men in power (and all men hold some power over women) will acknowledge is a reduction in their power. The only way to get to this is to withhold our labor, in all its senses. If we can come to a consensus on making the world stop or at least stumble, without harming children since men do not care about children’s welfare, we should do it.

P.S.: I have benefitted tremendously from this and similar MN boards. Although I mostly just lurk, I hope my contribution is not unwelcome.

Signalbox · 31/12/2022 15:22

It's about wanting, for some reason (which can vary) to be perceived as the other sex.

They don't want to wear dresses and lipstick because they have some innate strong interest in dresses and lipstick. They are wanting to be perceived as women - as being of the sex female

This doesn’t really fit with the current trans narrative and fashion of men identifying as women without making any effort at all to appear female. I think in many cases it’s more about demanding that others pretend to perceive you as the other sex even if it’s clear for all to see that you are not the other sex. It’s a power thing. Alex Drummond or Eddie Izzard or Danielle Muscato or Emily Bridges or Leah (dick out in the changing room) Thomas or that politician who recently came out after being arrested, don’t want us to perceive them as female. They want us to perceive them as as male but be made to refer to them as female or lesbians or women or mothers. It’s the ultimate in controlling women.

Grammarnut · 31/12/2022 15:57

EvilBee · 30/12/2022 06:30

Safeguarding is attacking me for being a trans woman? Who exactly are you safeguarding when you're kicking me in the face, telling me that I shouldn't go to the police?

No-one believes you should be kicked or harmed. We are saying, however, that women need their own spaces away from men, however those men identify, and it is not transphobic to support it. One could argue it is misogynistic to oppose such spaces and it certainly is to suggest that women must give up their spaces, places, sports to men who think they are women. There is no harm intended to transwomen, but they are not women and have no place in women's spaces.

Datun · 31/12/2022 16:35

Signalbox · 31/12/2022 15:22

It's about wanting, for some reason (which can vary) to be perceived as the other sex.

They don't want to wear dresses and lipstick because they have some innate strong interest in dresses and lipstick. They are wanting to be perceived as women - as being of the sex female

This doesn’t really fit with the current trans narrative and fashion of men identifying as women without making any effort at all to appear female. I think in many cases it’s more about demanding that others pretend to perceive you as the other sex even if it’s clear for all to see that you are not the other sex. It’s a power thing. Alex Drummond or Eddie Izzard or Danielle Muscato or Emily Bridges or Leah (dick out in the changing room) Thomas or that politician who recently came out after being arrested, don’t want us to perceive them as female. They want us to perceive them as as male but be made to refer to them as female or lesbians or women or mothers. It’s the ultimate in controlling women.

If you read what a lot of AGP men say, they want to play act as being oppressed and objectified, in order to get aroused. To be sexually dominated, and in the words of Paris Lees, treated as a 'piece of meat'.

They're not actually relinquishing any power, at all. It's not the slightest bit gender nonconforming, feminine or 'acting like a woman'.

It is the power of being a man that allows them to pretend to be submissive, and make other people to join in. It couldn't be done without male privilege and power.

Reminds me of Marie Antoinette playing at being a milk maid.

No-one thinks Marie Antoinette wanted to be treated as an actual milk maid.

Delphinium20 · 31/12/2022 17:02

My DD's generation really doesn't care, they just aren't self conscious in the same way

I have 2 DD (teen and YA) and they are fed up with the gender bs and, in the case of the older, increasingly fed up with men pretending there's no sexism in TWAW.

As to feeling self conscious- that's as prevalent in teens as it's ever been. It's just the policing and judging and self obsession takes place online with a larger audience.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 31/12/2022 17:20

@nilsmousehammer I was understating in answer to OPs question I completely agree and your reaction is indeed the one I would hope my 'question' would elicit.

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 17:53

nilsmousehammer · 31/12/2022 14:20

I'd be banished for ever to the naughty corner that is netmums.

Don't risk it. You're not allowed to swear there.

Sugar. Well I'd be flipping scre...erm...bugg....shiiiiipping cuntainers.

(And this is why I was never allowed to go to Sunday School, or Brownies!)

ArtfullyCrumpled · 31/12/2022 19:37

I just read a post on friends SM saying anyone who is GC and follows the views of "Helen Staniland, LGB Alliance, Maya Forstater ..." etc a bigot and a c*nt.

Gay middle aged man. He's unfollowed me across SM. I'm guessing our friendship of over 2 decades is over and he is deeply offended by my views.

I don't want to hurt him - or anyone!

I am totally in support of gay rights, lesbian rights and womens rights all equally human rights and always have been.

But this is personal and it is hard to debate because of the emotions of people who believe they are victims as trans allies,

I'm shut down as a bigot and deleted. I'll just have to take the hit because this is my stance and I've been vocal about it on FB and Twitter very recently.

Metabigot · 31/12/2022 20:12

ArtfullyCrumpled · 31/12/2022 19:37

I just read a post on friends SM saying anyone who is GC and follows the views of "Helen Staniland, LGB Alliance, Maya Forstater ..." etc a bigot and a c*nt.

Gay middle aged man. He's unfollowed me across SM. I'm guessing our friendship of over 2 decades is over and he is deeply offended by my views.

I don't want to hurt him - or anyone!

I am totally in support of gay rights, lesbian rights and womens rights all equally human rights and always have been.

But this is personal and it is hard to debate because of the emotions of people who believe they are victims as trans allies,

I'm shut down as a bigot and deleted. I'll just have to take the hit because this is my stance and I've been vocal about it on FB and Twitter very recently.

It's bizarre isn't it. My own brother, who I had no idea was into gender politics has disowned me 'until I renounce my views'
I asked if we could agree to disagree he said no.

He was never like this before. Its like a cult has taken his attitude over.