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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

How do you speak up without being called transphobic

314 replies

Enterusername111333 · 30/12/2022 01:04

I just feel so lost... I don't know how to voice my opinion without accusations so I just take the easy option. Where does it end?

OP posts:
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6
SallyLockheart · 31/12/2022 11:45

I'd quite like men to show gender non conforming men (ie trans women) respect and provision ... in the men's toilets, the men's prisons, the men's rape trauma centre, the men's changing rooms, men's sport etc.

I'm quite happy to show respect and provision to gender non conforming women.

That's easy, isn't it?

other option is additional an additional third "unigender" space - but not at the expense of disabled provision - but that never seems popular.

MuffytheWooWooSlayer · 31/12/2022 11:47

I'd quite like men to show gender non conforming men (ie trans women) respect and provision ... in the men's toilets, the men's prisons, the men's rape trauma centre, the men's changing rooms, men's sport etc.

This. This. This. This. 👆🏻

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 31/12/2022 11:49

gogohmm · 31/12/2022 11:34

I think there is a balance and both sides seem unable to see that the other has a point!

My take is, there are times when single sex spaces are important and that should be honoured eg shared, hospital bays, changing rooms without individual cubicles and in these circumstances all public spaces should have provision for those who do not fit into the gender binary so nobody is made uncomfortable eg a side room at the hospital or a disabled changing room. In other parts of society moving towards unisex facilities is a better option (eg smaller public spaces like coffee shops often have unisex single facility toilets). For services like prisons they need to have a system in place to safeguard the trans person and the other inmates, it's not rocket science. In a few professions, where there is genuine need, single sex provision should be an option eg non emergency gynaecology, intimate nursing, counselling following rape, but it is pretty limited after all, who cares about the sex of their brain surgeon!

We need to get over the panic, honestly it's not that complicated to live together whilst showing respect and provision where necessary. My DD's generation really doesn't care, they just aren't self conscious in the same way

You seem to have come in at the end of the movie!

Single use facilities are not the issue.

The sex of surgeons is not the issue.

It's those common sense single sex areas that are the issue.

And if you think women saying no to any male wanting to use single sex female spaces can ever be wrong you are part of the problem.

Your Dad's generation is flooded with all sorts of crap that only strengthens the patriarchal grip on society. From girls/women's magazines discussing anal sex as though it is common, every day and not something a modern young woman would object to, to all the be kind, TWAW bollocks that further eroded their boundaries. We can only hope that their awakening doesn't come via a nasty incident. After all it isn't about being self conscious it's about being safe, being allowed privacy and dignity. Those natural barriers that all decent human beings adhere to.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 31/12/2022 11:50

Dad = DD obviously! Bloody auto cucumber

JoodyBlue · 31/12/2022 11:52

😂@SamphirethePogoingStickerist

atomsgirl · 31/12/2022 11:53

@JoodyBlue I used to think the same way you did. It seems reasonable.

But when you start to look into it, it's horrific.

Those born with male genitals are stronger and faster than those born with female genitals. This is a fact.

But men are competing in women's sports, men are in women's prisons, men are in DV centres, men are taking awards aimed at women, committee chairs, and so on. Is this right?

And what about 16 year old boy decides he identifies as female, and can then access 16 year old female changing rooms?

No safe spaces means sex perverts and paedophiles can easily access vulnerable women and children.

Not only that, if we aren't viewed as biological women, all the stats will be incorrect in relation to crimes such as rape, and wage equality, and so on.

Personally, I am very concerned what the future has in store for women and children.

JoodyBlue · 31/12/2022 11:54

@atomsgirl I think you have misunderstood where I stand on these arguments. Probably because I have at some point expressed myself poorly. I do not have any argument with a single thing you wrote.

nilsmousehammer · 31/12/2022 11:57

My DD's generation really doesn't care, they just aren't self conscious in the same way

When the inevitable statistical percentage of your DD and her friends have their eyes opened by bitter experience, we'll be here for you, and her.

atomsgirl · 31/12/2022 11:58

@JoodyBlue Ah no worries JoodyBlue. I'm just glad there is a fellow sister in this madness 😊

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 12:02

JoodyBlue · 31/12/2022 11:54

@atomsgirl I think you have misunderstood where I stand on these arguments. Probably because I have at some point expressed myself poorly. I do not have any argument with a single thing you wrote.

It may have been my bad pick up of your response to a poster to agree with you without engaging directly with the original one

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 12:03

Well that was as clear as mud

Chesneyhawkes1 · 31/12/2022 12:17

I couldn't care less if I was called transphobic. The opinions of men who want to take over women's spaces don't interest me.

Helleofabore · 31/12/2022 12:19

gogohmm · 31/12/2022 11:34

I think there is a balance and both sides seem unable to see that the other has a point!

My take is, there are times when single sex spaces are important and that should be honoured eg shared, hospital bays, changing rooms without individual cubicles and in these circumstances all public spaces should have provision for those who do not fit into the gender binary so nobody is made uncomfortable eg a side room at the hospital or a disabled changing room. In other parts of society moving towards unisex facilities is a better option (eg smaller public spaces like coffee shops often have unisex single facility toilets). For services like prisons they need to have a system in place to safeguard the trans person and the other inmates, it's not rocket science. In a few professions, where there is genuine need, single sex provision should be an option eg non emergency gynaecology, intimate nursing, counselling following rape, but it is pretty limited after all, who cares about the sex of their brain surgeon!

We need to get over the panic, honestly it's not that complicated to live together whilst showing respect and provision where necessary. My DD's generation really doesn't care, they just aren't self conscious in the same way

Oh yay!!! Panic mentioned yet again!!

How bizarre that your post mirrors what most posters on this board think from my time reading their posts, but you feel the need to frame it as ‘panic’ somehow.

“My DD's generation really doesn't care, they just aren't self conscious in the same way”

My teen’s generation certainly don’t have the life experience to understand what they are ‘not caring about’ . And remembering me at that age, I had nowhere near the boundaries I developed in my 20s, which were still less than my boundaries now.

Saying your daughter’s generation are not ‘self conscious’ in the same way is meaningless because of course as we gain perspective from processing our experiences we will have greater understanding.

FFS my teen has been attempting to convince me that their best friend who is clearly a teenaged female passes completely as a male teenager, just short! No thanks, I am not interested in allowing females with no or little life experience to make changes to laws and policies such as toilet provision.

You, personally, might feel very comfortable with unisex provision (I am not talking about single toilets in a coffee shop) where you, personally, draw the boundary.

I choose to listen to those women who have stated clearly what they need and extend my boundaries to now include their needs, and then protect my teen’s generation’s future needs for them.

MargaretMead · 31/12/2022 12:22

MuffytheWooWooSlayer · 31/12/2022 11:47

I'd quite like men to show gender non conforming men (ie trans women) respect and provision ... in the men's toilets, the men's prisons, the men's rape trauma centre, the men's changing rooms, men's sport etc.

This. This. This. This. 👆🏻

Seconded. Why is it the job of biological women to accommodate trans women in our spaces? Why is the conversation never about the culture of toxic transphobia in males that make men’s prisons and toilets feel unsafe for trans women?

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 12:24

FFS my teen has been attempting to convince me that their best friend who is clearly a teenaged female passes completely as a male teenager, just short!

@Helleofabore 💐and suddenly your posting style makes so much more sense.

Big hugs (I'd used the big letters but I've already been very frivolous with them this morning.)
Boiled x

Helleofabore · 31/12/2022 12:36

I am just like many parents on this board at the moment who are absolutely seeing the damage that is happening to our teens and children.

And many off the board too. I have too many friends across two countries very distant from each other, who are parents a directly dealing with supporting their children. That is why I laugh, rather than cry, when we have posters telling us ‘you should go and speak to trans people!’ Or ‘you obviously don’t know any trans people’. I know I am not alone in how prevalent this is amongst my friends as parents.

The people who use that defense on a parenting site’s board set up to discuss the impacts on women’s and children’s protections of another group’s demands are projecting their own deep prejudices and ignorance.

Helleofabore · 31/12/2022 12:37

Who are not ‘as’

SweetSenorita · 31/12/2022 12:42

EvilBee · 30/12/2022 01:51

I remember the old trope "everything is homophobic" - turns out, they were right, but that old trope is being recycled for transphobia.

Show quote history

No, they weren't!

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 12:44

I'm raging just knowing what's happening to women's rights, and I don't have kids and future generation of family to think about.

Those of you watching your children and grandchildren try to live in this new version of reality must be horrified about what their future could end up like

HUGE GROUP HUG

to all of you

Brefugee · 31/12/2022 12:58

honestly it's not that complicated to live together whilst showing respect and provision where necessary.

In general i am only seeing one "side" of this told to #BeKind. But in essence i agree. There is a way that we can all live together.

In terms of being called a transphobe, as with many undeserved epithets the trick is not to care. But also maybe have a quick think if it really is transphobic (which is what i'd do if someone called me homophobic or a racist, for eg)

Asking for the "cervix haver" type of language to be binned in favour of "women and those who identify as women" (see, i can compromise) is not transphobic. Any more than it is transphobic to invite "men" for prostrate examinations.

Asking for same sex provision of intimate care isn't transphobic. It is deeply insulting to suggest otherwise (the thread on twitter by the disabled woman is really helpful in showing why)

Attacking FGM survivors and campaigners as transphobic is batshit and should always be countered. People who perform FGM know who the girls are and their targets can't identify out of that. See also women and girls slowly being firmly shut out of daily life by the Taliban. (there's even a Guardian article by an Afghani woman saying that in the 90s she disguised herself as a boy to go to school, that's not possible now)

Sex selective abortions show us that we know that sex is determined before birth, and saying that "AFAB" is ridiculous as a concept is not transphobic. The sex is observed at birth. That is it. The sex is observed, nobody is saying "here's your girl, she must forever wear pink and do tinkly laughs and headtilts at men's pearls of wisdom for her entire life"

Refusing to have the epithet "cis" applied to me isn't transphobic. In fact if you insist that TWAW, you surely don't need to have a subset for natal women, do you? you're separating trans women from women. That's more transphobic, IMO.

And so on. Stay factual, keep emotion out of it all and refuse to engage if people get shouty at you because you're a transphobe committing literal violence. And if anyone ever tells you that the trans community are the most marginalised, perhaps ask them why women keep getting arrested for stickering and tweeting, but trans-folk aren't being arrested in similar numbers for actual violence

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 13:05

But also maybe have a quick think if it really is transphobic

I'm past that at this point when even breathing seems to be transphobic.

I'm not transphobic.anyone calling me that is probably a multitude of phobias wrapped up in narcissistic rage and I'm not their therapist.

Truthlikeness · 31/12/2022 13:08

MargaretMead · 31/12/2022 12:22

Seconded. Why is it the job of biological women to accommodate trans women in our spaces? Why is the conversation never about the culture of toxic transphobia in males that make men’s prisons and toilets feel unsafe for trans women?

Show quote history

I have seen men being accepting of transwomen in their spaces, but that's not what some transwomen want.

Truthlikeness · 31/12/2022 13:13

I approach speaking out by making sure I have legislation and scientific studies on my side - e.g. Equality Act, The Forstater ruling, Building regulations, sports bodies' policies and peer-reviewed studies.

That doesn't stop some people still claiming you're transphobic, but it gives you a solid basis to respond. If they're claiming you're transphobic for asking for appropriate application of the Equality Act, well, the law of the land is also transphobic.

lieselotte · 31/12/2022 13:17

MargaretMead · 31/12/2022 12:22

Seconded. Why is it the job of biological women to accommodate trans women in our spaces? Why is the conversation never about the culture of toxic transphobia in males that make men’s prisons and toilets feel unsafe for trans women?

Show quote history

And the gender stereotyping that leads to people feeling they are in the wrong body anyway?

Why do you have to be a woman to wear make-up and a dress? If a bloke wants to wear make-up and a dress, he can. He doesn't need to call himself a woman and use female loos.

If we stopped all the nonsensical gender stereotyping we wouldn't be in this mess at all. Or at least not so much (given extreme male woman-haters would find some way to get at us).

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 13:26

lieselotte · 31/12/2022 13:17

And the gender stereotyping that leads to people feeling they are in the wrong body anyway?

Why do you have to be a woman to wear make-up and a dress? If a bloke wants to wear make-up and a dress, he can. He doesn't need to call himself a woman and use female loos.

If we stopped all the nonsensical gender stereotyping we wouldn't be in this mess at all. Or at least not so much (given extreme male woman-haters would find some way to get at us).

Show quote history

Over the years I've never embraced the femininity of womanhood. I've sometimes hated my body for being female (it causes a lot of issues). Sometimes I've wished I was a man, (knowing that if i was my life would be better). I've even wondered what it would be like to be a man, to experience going for a pee, having sex, being redirected instantly just fit being male).

But wishing doesn't make it so. I've been able to go through all of the above and have it, rightly, stay as just what it is: a thought experiment. But then that's because i was brought up anchored in the reality of the meaning of words and biological facts.

If i was young today... I would be one really unhappy, confused, messed up kid.