Am I a TERF?

[PurplePalms]

Discovered today a family member (male) is dating a transwoman.

Absolutely no idea on the status of her transition, hormones/surgery etc. as that’s her business. I have met her a handful of times and she is polite and pleasant. A very nice person.

My family member doesn’t know I know because …

I was having a snoop at her Facebook page, saw old posts and photos from when she was younger living as a male and recently saw a post from her stating “Transmen are real men. Transwomen are real women”.

This just didn’t sit right with me.

For what it’s worth, I’d consider myself quite liberal. I don’t discriminate on sexuality, race, age, gender etc. If you’re born a man and feel like you want to medically transition and vice Versa, that’s fine, do your thing and accept you’re trans.

BUT, to then say you are a real woman. Even though you were born genetically male and (most likely) have male genitalia- you can’t be a real woman? You can’t possibly understand how it feels to be a woman. Hormonally, emotionally, physically and socially.

Part of me feels awful for feeling this way. Like I am a bad person. Obviously I would never say to her face “you are not a real woman” never in a million years would I want to cause someone upset, start drama etc. Am I a terf? Do I sound awful?

I can speak for most trans people and they're far more interested in your actions than your beliefs.

Why do you suppose this though? Can I ask how you know this? Because that seems very out of kilter with the constant deplatforming, violent protests against women speaking etc? It seems you are out of touch or playing a false appeal to your own authority.

Look just because those people may not see themselves as women doesn't mean that actual women wouldn't still welcome them if they walked through the door. We can recognise our own and those of the make half of the species very easily.

It's just the male women we have a problem with, when it comes to single sex spaces anyway.

Hiya @Boiledbeetle - I can make safe assertions about how most trans people are on some topics as I've literally built trans communities and speak (like, actually speak) with many on a daily basis..and I've been in this terrible excuse for a debate for 5-6 years. Sure there are plenty of areas where trans people are very divided and I wouldn't make that claim, but not here.

Sadly as there's not many trans ppl here, but feel free to go to trans spaces (be polite) and ask on these topics.

I think if you speak for most trans people, it's far from a moot point that you understand the language used, and use it property.

Your one trans person. With not a lot interesting or intellectual to say about the OPs situation. Just your own sense of self worth.

It's pretty arrogant to appoint oneself speaker for a whole demographic.

Why?

Do you feel you speak for females with trans identities as well as males?

Because we see quite a few transitioned females who come and post here on MN who absolutely agree that sex based rights need to be protected and that they know they need them for themselves- therefore they are included in feminism. And that they also respect that their hormonally changed presentation may just as easily cause distress so they seek to find another solution for their needs when they expect that might happen.

Something about your posts don’t quite add up.

I suspect that any lurkers who were not TERFs reading this, will be now.

No, luckily. I was using that as an example to answer EvilBee’s question of “are you a radical feminist who wants to exclude trans women?”

@EvilBee quick question to determine which group of trans people you are soaking for...single sex spaces. Do you use the one you were born as or the one you present as/ feel as / identify as. Actually second question what Is the correct version of that these days.

@PurplePalms by the way we'll understand completely if you back away slowly and slip out the door whilst we're are arguing the toss with our acquaintances that have arrived.

But I urge you to stick around its one of the few places where both sides do actually have conversations, even if they generally end in a bun fight and tears and the occasional poster getting banned.

'Trans' is essentially meaningless now as people can't really agree on what specifically it means. In OP's case probably it's 'someone who strongly desires to be the opposite sex'. But it also includes people who feel they don't match masculine or feminine stereotypes or reject gender identification completely.

So I don't think anyone would exclude anyone from anything on the basis that they are 'trans', unless it's set out what this actually means in practice. Most 'exclusions' and inclusions are based on sex, which is entirely different to whether someone is trans or not.

Anyway, people are trying to drag me into topics that have been done 1000 times over and bares no resemblance to what happens in actual boring reality.

I wish OP well and hope that they don't let ontological arguments get into the way of regular human relations.

@EvilBee
Like, I have discussions with people at work and friends all the time about differences in our beliefs, but we can still hold mutual respect and love.

I don’t know if will be mutual respect though. I can’t respect someone who believes “Transwomen are real women”. No matter how hard I try to. She is a nice person otherwise, we get along, which is why this is so complex for me.

I fear being labelled negatively as a terf
for being upset my experiences as being a woman (sexual assault, sexual harassment, cat calling, pay inequalities, sexism, misogyny, health issues, fertility) can be compared and seen as the same as someone who was born a male but now lives as female. It’s not fair.

It’s a catch 22 for me. I’d hate to make someone feel uncomfortable and upset, but at the same time why should feel uncomfortable myself?

Personally I don't give a monkeys what your beliefs are as long as you're not trying to remove my rights or slight me to my face. Perhaps just talk to her and try and understand her experiences?

Well that's refreshing! Did you miss a memo EvilBee as you're supposed to tell us that believing sex is real and sometimes matters is literally killing everyone? (meant light-heartedly - many trans people who come on here are usually pretty laid back, although don't like answering questions!)

Hmm so I wonder if he was hiding it / faking it or is bisexual.

Can I ask how old they are?

'ontological' - I don't think this word means what you think it means, Evil.

We're just after males staying out of women's spaces. Nothing esoteric or complicated about it. No philosophy required.

I don’t want to back away😂

I am finding the discussion so far both informative and confusing. (And maybe frustrating with a certain poster!)

I do feel comfortable expressing my opinions here, as opposed to in real life.

It’s a catch 22 for me. I’d hate to make someone feel uncomfortable and upset, but at the same time why should feel uncomfortable myself?

Sadly, it becomes evident that 'gender' ideology retains a belief that males are more important than women, and entitled to more rights. At its base, this is a men's rights movement.

Genderism suggests that males who are uncomfortable using men's spaces should use women's spaces. Women who are uncomfortable with men in their space should 'get over it'.

The OP is a she. Not plural, they. Singular. Adult Human Female.

Bye.

For what it's worth, OP, the law (Equality Act) supports your rights to single sex spaces for 'privacy, dignity and safety'. Furthermore, 'gender critical beliefs' are worth of respect in a democratic society.

To be 'gender critical' means to believe that there are two sexes and that sex is immutable, iirc. That's it.

Don't let anybody make you feel bad for sticking up for your own boundaries.

You sound very kind and polite.

Embrace rudeness.

@EvilBee You said you think the query 'what is a woman?' needs clarifying.

If I said that my interpretation of a woman is "someone who is born with female reproductive organs, and has reached adulthood'.

My interpretation of a man is "someone who is born with male reproductive organs, and has reached adulthood".

Would you agree?

Part of me feels awful for feeling this way. Like I am a bad person

That's because you've been socialised as a woman, and you must be kind and accepting of everyone. You are taught to feel bad for having boundaries....whilst simultaneously demonised for not having any if anything goes wrong in your life.

I don't care about the TERF label. Most of the time it's just inaccurate because a lot of people are not radical feminists. It is being used though as a synonym for 'witch' or 'bitch' - basically pesky women who dare to question.

If you want to be honest with yourself, you need to let go of anxieties about hurting people's feelings. A lot of people who call themselves trans activists or trans allies certainly won't care about yours or your safety.

TERFs are Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists.

I believe feminism should represent the needs and interests of female people only. I exclude transwomen from my definition of female, but I include transmen in my definition of female. I don't see what's so "radical" about that. So I'm not a TERF but I might be a TEF. Or maybe a MEF 😁

I wouldn't seek to exclude transpeople from access to housing or employment or whatever. I wouldn't try to exclude them from going to my local pub, or sitting next to me on a bus. I would want to exclude transwomen from sharing my changing rooms, or playing on my single-sex sports team. Transmen would still be welcome. I think that's the position of most "TERFs" (and most sensible people)