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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What does living as a woman actually mean?

192 replies

astrowars · 21/12/2022 21:39

So if the Scottish parliament votes for the new law, and someone can obtain a certificate stating they're a woman because they have lived as one for 3 months ... is there a definition, description or checklist to ensure the individual has done everything needed? I have a horrid feeling I may now not be a woman under such a definition!

OP posts:
Kucingsparkles · 22/12/2022 08:55

As soon as I hear anyone talking about identifying as X, I identify them as a person who hasn’t thought any of this through. If that person is an academic (or even has a degree in the human sciences), I apply intersectionality and identify them as someone who should know better because they’ve been trained to think things through properly.

Xmas Grin👏Xmas Grin

Janie143 · 22/12/2022 08:58

Well when this Bill is passed women, as they once were, will be erased. Everything will effectively be mixed sex no matter how it is labelled.

Abra1t · 22/12/2022 09:01

Obviously it means not being able to check tyre pressures or refill screen wash because your fingernails get in the way.

FourChimneys · 22/12/2022 09:06

Exhausteddog exactly. A friend and I were having this conversation yesterday.

Wellies54 · 22/12/2022 09:09

Swashbuckled · 22/12/2022 08:44

^
Maybe. But the thing is he's over six foot and built like a brick shit house. And strong.
We'd imagine he'd get more stick from the males, I think. But they wouldn't aggravate him because he's a big chap.

And then we're back to why they can't just keep using the men's toilets.

I bet he doesn't get stick. His friends probably have a little chuckle behind his back but I reckon he gets loads of positive attention and everyone plays along!

@BlessedKali That is a great story! Wrong answer: I gave birth. Correct answer: I cuddled a kitten and stole some lacey knickers. They'd have been beaming at you if you'd said that!

howmanybicycles · 22/12/2022 09:22

BlessedKali · 22/12/2022 00:46

I wasn't so clear there... We worked in a group of 7 but it was a room of about 50 people.

Anyway I'm not sure why I am relaying this story, but the memory was triggered.

Perhaps because this is indeed the essence of being female. I too felt most female when pregnant, attempting to breast-feed, leaking period blood all over my school skirt repeatedly, going through peri-menopause etc. There are no other times when I can really say I 'identified' as a woman. I wear skirts because they fit me better thann trousers due to being very curvy, and married a male and have 2 kids. But there are many, many, many ways which I don't confirm with any stereotypical expectations. There is no other way I can define being female/ a woman and attempting to belittle me for not pretending my experience of female is something a male can share is basically male entitlement writ large.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 22/12/2022 09:22

ErrolTheDragon · 22/12/2022 01:01

Is there any definition of “woman” that makes sense other than “adult, human female”?

No, there isn't.
Changing your name and pronouns isn't 'living as a woman'. But that's about all that seems to be necessary for the legal fiction in Scotland.

If being referred to by female pronouns is all the new definition of womanhood boils down to then not using wrong sex pronouns is even more important. We must use sex based language if we don’t want to legitimise gender identity and queer theory in law and society.

Copied from my post on the language thread

“By being forced to use wrong sex pronouns and other gender identity language patterns we are being made complicit in upholding the idea that gender identity is significant and matters and sex is irrelevant. Now in Scotland it seems that if you are against the concept of gender identity you are going to be forced to participate in legitimising the gender identity of individuals- using third female pronouns about a person is what makes that person legally female, if you don’t want a man to be legally recognised as a woman it is important that you continue to refer to him with third person male pronouns but if you do that you will be arrested for hate crime, lose your job etc. I am not sure how this is anything other than tyranny.

Using wrong sex pronouns is no longer arguable as just being polite, it is the defining act of granting a man legal status as a woman and vice versa. The language is creating the legal reality if not the actual reality. The language we use is vitally important correct sex pronouns, and sexed language such as man, woman, mother, father, breastfeeding, sister, brother, son, daughter and yes let’s be honest and factual a man who is pretending to be a woman, a woman who wishes she were a man, a boy who likes to play with whatever, a girl who like to do whatever etc”

TheYummyPatler · 22/12/2022 09:29

If it’s just about what pronouns you force other people to use when referring to you, then that also exposes the fact that the whole thing is about controlling what everyone else does.

It is extremely controlling. It’s about individuals dictating the actions, speech and even thought patterns of other people.

Why are we [by which I mean the bits of society promoting and going along with this] acting like that’s a good thing?

musicalfrog · 22/12/2022 09:56

So if everyone 'misgenders' them, what then? Do they not get the certificate after all?

LangClegsInSpace · 22/12/2022 10:05

UrsulaPandress · 22/12/2022 00:04

Please tell me the gas bills thing isn’t true.

www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/what-documents-you-need

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/12/2022 10:12

from the uk government website

You’ll need copies of evidence to show that you’ve been living in your affirmed gender for the last 2 years.

Each piece of evidence should contain at least one of the following that matches up with your affirmed gender:

a name
a title, like ‘Mr’ or ‘Miss’
a gender marker, like ‘male’ or ‘female’

so lady names are a thing and start lying about your sex as soon as possible!

what a shit show

repeal the GRA

LangClegsInSpace · 22/12/2022 10:12

JacquelinePot · 22/12/2022 07:42

I believe that was one of the early requirements to get a GRC. Not even joking.

It used to be a requirement to be approved for surgery. They called it the 'real life test'.

I don't think it's ever been a requirement for a GRC, although some doctors might have made it a requirement for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which in turn, is a requirement to get a GRC.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 22/12/2022 10:15

musicalfrog · 22/12/2022 09:56

So if everyone 'misgenders' them, what then? Do they not get the certificate after all?

I’m sure they still will because they can easily change their name and title, the other thing which defines womanhood legally with the new proposals, and because no one is checking to see how many people willingly submit and use wrong sex pronouns, however I do not want to be complicit in that personally because it directly goes against my beliefs in the importance of sex and the irrelevance of gender identity. In fact I consider forcing me to comply with wrong sex pronouns written into this badly conceived law as giving men legal recognition as women and vice versa is breaching my human rights to freedom of speech, thought and belief.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 22/12/2022 10:23

“In order to allow male people to be women, womanhood for all women has to be limited to only things that can be achieved by males even though this change, so crucial to trans women's identy as women, makes the concept of womanhood superficial and almost entirely meaningless.”

This by FlirtsWithRhinos gets to the point perfectly. Now in Scotland womanhood is having a female name and title and other people referring to you with female pronouns. This is it because men can easily do these things as well as women, any mention of how one dresses, tastes, hobbies, career choice or personality traits are too obviously sexist so now name, title and pronouns are the only legal difference between men and women or at least not quite yet but that is the proposal. We should all be looking at the petitions board and signing the 3 relevant petitions, if we haven’t already, to get this properly debated in Parliament.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 22/12/2022 10:28

To be clear I don’t think that how one dresses, tastes, hobbies, career choice or personality traits are what defines womanhood but in the past proponents of gender identity have argued on these lines. There is no attempt currently to write those things into law. For me sex is about biology, DNA, gametes and all that follows from that. I believe we need a legal definition of woman, adult human female, which reflects biology.

Imicola · 22/12/2022 10:31

I think that if you consider yourself to be 'living as a female' or you 'identify as a woman' then chances are, you're a man (or a handmaiden).

Fairislefandango · 22/12/2022 10:32

In order to allow male people to be women, womanhood for all women has to be limited to only things that can be achieved by males even though this change, so crucial to trans women's identy as women, makes the concept of womanhood superficial and almost entirely meaningless.

That is very, very well put.

Fififafa · 22/12/2022 10:34

Probablymagrat · 21/12/2022 21:55

Whatever it is, and I have no idea, I bet it wont include earning 30% less, doing most of the housework, child care, sending all the christmas and birthday cards and buying all the sodding presents.

This!

Ramblingnamechanger · 22/12/2022 10:35

In Spain the proposals include massive fines for “transphobia” Presumably misgendering will be punished severely . Agree we must stop complying with coercive instructions. If we all refused, what would happen.

JacquelinePot · 22/12/2022 10:41

How can anyone think it reasonable to pass legislation which benefits certain individuals while harming women, children, opposite sex oriented people, people who need intimate care, etc. and it hinges on members of the general public having to call a man a woman?

That the proof of the man being a woman, in the legislation is other people - even against their will - calling him a woman.*

Absurd, obscene and I do not consent.

Humans can't change sex. A woman is an adult human female. No man will ever be a woman.

*none of the arguments for it are reasonable but this is simply INSANE

Fififafa · 22/12/2022 10:44

Cherryblossoms85 · 22/12/2022 00:03

Playing with their fake tits for a bit and being really good at fake eyelashes?

Yes and taking selfies with their head cocked to one side, hand covering the Adam’s apple and pouting for Scotland.

MarshaBradyo · 22/12/2022 10:49

Listening to someone talk on this there’s a fair amount of complexity when people leave Scotland to England.

Won’t try and recap as didn’t catch it all. But something about being a woman / man in Scotland but not England

RudsyFarmer · 22/12/2022 10:49

Does a new birth certificate get generated each time you decide to change sex? I was reading an article yesterday where they talked about birth certificate corrections. If you transition then decided to detransition etc do you end up with with a pile of documentation at the end?

Fififafa · 22/12/2022 10:53

BruceAndNosh · 22/12/2022 08:41

Wearing ill advised shades of lipstick?

😂

VaddaABeetch · 22/12/2022 10:54

So if you can be a woman in Scotland but a man in England when does this process start?

is it a bit like the Incredible Hulk. You start in Scotland in a pretty dress, lipstick, long hair & heels then as you cross the border you’re dressed like a docker with a 5 o’clock shadow?

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