Page 3 | What does living as a woman actually mean?

astrowars · 2022-12-21T21:39:10+00:00

So if the Scottish parliament votes for the new law, and someone can obtain a certificate stating they're a woman because they have lived as one for 3 months ... is there a definition, description or checklist to ensure the individual has done everything needed? I have a horrid feeling I may now not be a woman under such a definition!

TheBiologyStupid · 22/12/2022 00:39

dementedpixie · 21/12/2022 21:43

Lipstick, long hair, high heels and a spinny skirt?

Don't forget the all-important head tilt...!

BlessedKali · 22/12/2022 00:44

I remember going to a talk on gender shite at Shambala festival... This was years ago before I knew anything about it and was intrigued as to what this new issue was. It was a talk/workshop and at one point we had to get into groups. I was sat next to an older black lady and we got chatting, i asked her why she had come and she said she wanted to hear what these people had to say about their issue, she said that when it came to race issues she appreciated to be listened to, and to have her experience respected, and so with these new 'trans' issues, she wanted to listen to what the people involved had to say.

Anyway so we do this group work, about 7 of us, including some transmales, and the question was 'when in your life have you most identified with your gender' (or something like this). I was about 26 and had given birth the year before, and also totally innocent/naive to the trans debate, so I put my hand up and said to the entire room passionately that I had felt most female after the fantastic experience of giving birth, of growing a baby, of having a baby come out of my body and breast feed, and to me that was quintessentially female. I was so happy i was beaming telling the room this. I remember looking across at a glum male person sort of glaring at me. I didnt think anything of it until at the end the black lady leant in and said to me 'I can't believe you said that' - she had a bit of a twinkle in her eye so I think maybe she had peaked during that session. I hadn't yet peaked I cringednat my 'stupidity'. I used to think back to that moment and cringe to myself - how could I have been so fucking DENSE to the poor trans and non binary people. What a stupid thing to say, it must have pissed them all off...

Now I look back and I am SO thankful for my honesty, and my naivety!!! Those words were TRUE, and if they made some men uncomfrotable then GOOD.

BlessedKali · 22/12/2022 00:46

I wasn't so clear there... We worked in a group of 7 but it was a room of about 50 people.

Anyway I'm not sure why I am relaying this story, but the memory was triggered.

NooneKnowsWhatItsLike · 22/12/2022 00:48

I can’t see them being willing to compile some sort of checklist about this (as they’d have to admit it’s nonsense).

However, if they did, I’d be willing to bet I’d fail it (despite being an actual woman!).

TheBiologyStupid · 22/12/2022 00:51

Yes, a bit like the native Brits who would fail the citizenship test...

Judgyjudgy · 22/12/2022 00:53

Picking up after your useless DH and doing the lionshare of the work. Do I sound bitter??

NooneKnowsWhatItsLike · 22/12/2022 00:56

Indeed! I did in fact fail (a practice) citizenship test! Foreign friend asked me for help studying for it - I went online and failed a practice one!

The problem was - I was born and raised in Scotland. The test has a heavily English culture/history slant! I know next to nothing about St George or The War if the Roses! I am however very knowledgeable about Scottish history.

NewBootsAndRanty · 22/12/2022 00:57

Always having a handbag with an array of pads, tampons and maybe even a mooncup to offer to strangers in the toilets.

ErrolTheDragon · 22/12/2022 01:01

Is there any definition of “woman” that makes sense other than “adult, human female”?

No, there isn't.
Changing your name and pronouns isn't 'living as a woman'. But that's about all that seems to be necessary for the legal fiction in Scotland.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/12/2022 01:10

BlackForestCake · 21/12/2022 22:42

So women don’t “live as women”...

Show quote history

Nope. We just are women, so any way we live is living as a woman.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/12/2022 01:12

HipTightOnions · 21/12/2022 23:03

Yes, pretending should be referenced much more in these policies.

When, in my head, I substitute "pretend to be" for "identify as" or "live as", it always seems to make the meaning clearer.

In a si ilar vein, I tend to read a certain word as "ersatz".

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/12/2022 01:52

Of course if you dig down into this at all these are very superficial things. They are the accidents of womanhood, not the essence of it. They are, though, I suppose, the kinds of things you'd do if you were disguising yourself as a woman to escape the draft, or some other reason.

They are also the only signifiers of womanhood that male people can access.

In order to allow male people to be women, womanhood for all women has to be limited to only things that can be achieved by males even though this change, so crucial to trans women's identy as women, makes the concept of womanhood superficial and almost entirely meaningless.

If all aspects of womanhood must be achieveable by males, then the only aspect that can be achieved by a trans woman but not another male is the act of identifying itself. There is no space for anything which is unique to womanhood. There is no essence.

So we have this surreal situation where TRA types are up in arms at the idea trans women may be excluded from some women-only provisions even though their concept of womanhood cannot explain what makes the provisions necessary in the first place. "Woman" becomes so empty of meaning that in practice it means nothing more than "a person who uses the women's facilities".

HopRockers · 22/12/2022 02:00

It means we should repeal the bloody GRA

EasterIsland · 22/12/2022 04:26

Probablymagrat · 21/12/2022 21:55

Whatever it is, and I have no idea, I bet it wont include earning 30% less, doing most of the housework, child care, sending all the christmas and birthday cards and buying all the sodding presents.

Hah! Indeed!

Musomama1 · 22/12/2022 06:22

I'm sure it assumes wearing the uniform of long hair, makeup and dresses / skirts. Maybe name change? When you actually scrutinize it all looks very silly.

But as there is no actual definition then actually it means less than that - simply nothing at all.

ThePoshUns · 22/12/2022 06:23

Ask Eddie what he does when he's in 'girl mode'?

EVHead · 22/12/2022 06:34

Who’s going to administer all this? Aren’t the councils and the Scottish government busy and cash-strapped enough at the moment?

What if a man goes through the three month qualifying period and thinks “Actually this is great! I’m living as Loretta and accessing women’s spaces, so sod all the form-filling I’ll just keep on doing what I’m doing!”?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 22/12/2022 06:50

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/12/2022 01:52

Of course if you dig down into this at all these are very superficial things. They are the accidents of womanhood, not the essence of it. They are, though, I suppose, the kinds of things you'd do if you were disguising yourself as a woman to escape the draft, or some other reason.

They are also the only signifiers of womanhood that male people can access.

In order to allow male people to be women, womanhood for all women has to be limited to only things that can be achieved by males even though this change, so crucial to trans women's identy as women, makes the concept of womanhood superficial and almost entirely meaningless.

If all aspects of womanhood must be achieveable by males, then the only aspect that can be achieved by a trans woman but not another male is the act of identifying itself. There is no space for anything which is unique to womanhood. There is no essence.

So we have this surreal situation where TRA types are up in arms at the idea trans women may be excluded from some women-only provisions even though their concept of womanhood cannot explain what makes the provisions necessary in the first place. "Woman" becomes so empty of meaning that in practice it means nothing more than "a person who uses the women's facilities".

What an excellent post. And yes, we should repeal the bloody GRA.

Original poster

astrowars · 22/12/2022 06:55

Another question. If some people need a certificate to confirm they have changed their gender, does that not imply that everyone should have one to start with? As far as I know the only certificate I have which refers to anything similar is my birth certificate, which records my sex.

OP posts:

gogohmm · 22/12/2022 07:12

@Swashbuckled

We've got a local guy who dresses as a woman, completely accepted for being who he is, uses a unisex shortening of his own name but no pretence he's a lm actual woman. Wear whatever clothes you want, choose a name you prefer and no issues with calling people she (or he) but that doesn't extend to access to single sex spaces. All new public buildings should either have unisex facilities (small places) or at least one unisex space (larger) to accommodate those who feel uncomfortable using their birth sex space (this includes parents with a small opposite sex child, disabled person with a carer etc)

bellinisurge · 22/12/2022 07:25

Less pay, slower career development, screwed pension.

Original poster

astrowars · 22/12/2022 07:28

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/12/2022 01:52

Of course if you dig down into this at all these are very superficial things. They are the accidents of womanhood, not the essence of it. They are, though, I suppose, the kinds of things you'd do if you were disguising yourself as a woman to escape the draft, or some other reason.

They are also the only signifiers of womanhood that male people can access.

In order to allow male people to be women, womanhood for all women has to be limited to only things that can be achieved by males even though this change, so crucial to trans women's identy as women, makes the concept of womanhood superficial and almost entirely meaningless.

If all aspects of womanhood must be achieveable by males, then the only aspect that can be achieved by a trans woman but not another male is the act of identifying itself. There is no space for anything which is unique to womanhood. There is no essence.

So we have this surreal situation where TRA types are up in arms at the idea trans women may be excluded from some women-only provisions even though their concept of womanhood cannot explain what makes the provisions necessary in the first place. "Woman" becomes so empty of meaning that in practice it means nothing more than "a person who uses the women's facilities".

This exactly 👏🏻

OP posts:

MarshaBradyo · 22/12/2022 07:29

I don’t know. Dressing up and that’s it?

Virginiaplain · 22/12/2022 07:33

Housework, job, main child carer, main elderly relative carer, shopper, cook. etc - Oh, no sorry that's real women.

JacquelinePot · 22/12/2022 07:41

Hip said: Yes, pretending should be referenced much more in these policies.

When, in my head, I substitute "pretend to be" for "identify as" or "live as", it always seems to make the meaning clearer.

I always switch "identifies as" for "is not"

This entire fiasco is so utterly offensive and absurd - not to mention dangerous - it makes me want to vomit with rage.