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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie’s back!

291 replies

Whatthechicken · 21/12/2022 21:09

love her, or hate her, we need her…and not a moment too soon.

twitter.com/theposieparker/status/1605663118402600961?s=21&t=PWXzDYgfqtMOfbm25dj7Mw

OP posts:
BloodyHellKen · 22/12/2022 14:35

EdithStourton · 22/12/2022 13:35

I always love the way in which certain posters accuse GC feminists of 'aligning with the Far Right' when most of us (on this board anyway) appear to be politically from the centre to the Left, and are raging that we've been abandoned by those we hoped would speak for us.

Looking at you, Labour, LibDems and the Grauniad.

I've been both lurking and commenting these threads for a while - sometimes under other names as I keep losing my pwd and having to change my username :)
I've come to the conclusion that TRAs try to align GC thinking to the 'far right' because so many of them are American or American influenced without any real UK political experience.

In the US they have Republicans who as far as I can see are generally not pro-trans like the Democrats. What American TRAs and their ilk don't comprehend is that the Conservative Party in the UK are the equivalent of the US Democrats, not the Republicans. The closest we have to Republicans are UKIP. Hence the trying to link anyone not obviously pro-trans as a far right loon.

Also I think American TRAs have trouble understanding that the UK political landscape is in no way linked to religion as it is the USA.

TRAs, it just isn't the same in the UK. We do things differently here.

Finally I'd like to know why so many TRAs on here - and other platforms communicate in such a Trumpian way - I'm looking at you @LangClegsInSpace and your BIG, IF TRUE comment and my favourite, adding SAD to the end of a sentence. No one speaks like that outside the US.

RoseslnTheHospital · 22/12/2022 14:41

@LangClegsInSpace is not a TRA! That comment was not meant to support the mad claims, the emphasis being on the "if true" part...

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 14:45

@BloodyHellKen
the Conservative Party in the UK are the equivalent of the US Democrats, not the Republicans.

😂😂 No, this is simply not true. And I say that as a Brit expat who lived for over twenty years in the US. The Conservatives are most closely equivalent to the Republicans, not the Democrats.

BloodyHellKen · 22/12/2022 14:45

RoseslnTheHospital · 22/12/2022 14:41

@LangClegsInSpace is not a TRA! That comment was not meant to support the mad claims, the emphasis being on the "if true" part...

@LangClegsInSpace , I didn't realise you were being ironically Trumpian. Irony doesn't always translate very well in a typed message 😂

But my point still stands. Why do so many TRAs speak in such a weird Trumpian way - I suppose it must be because so many are American or spend their time on US based forums.

RoseslnTheHospital · 22/12/2022 14:50

This article, from 2019, is quite interesting about where political parties in the UK, US and other countries map onto each other in terms of left/right:

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/26/opinion/sunday/republican-platform-far-right.html

BloodyHellKen · 22/12/2022 14:51

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 14:45

@BloodyHellKen
the Conservative Party in the UK are the equivalent of the US Democrats, not the Republicans.

😂😂 No, this is simply not true. And I say that as a Brit expat who lived for over twenty years in the US. The Conservatives are most closely equivalent to the Republicans, not the Democrats.

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that but I don't agree with you.

The Democrats are centrist, left or right depending on how the wind is blowing on a particular day and who is leading them. The Republicans are far, far more right wing than the Tory party and more inline with UKIP IMO.

There is no equivalent of the Labour party in the US unless you count Bernie Sanders on his own.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 22/12/2022 14:51

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Whatthechicken · 22/12/2022 14:54

I only posted because it felt like a little light during the darkest of days yesterday (well, for KJKs supporters anyway). Incredibly strong reaction to her just being back on Twitter.

Those that think she has shady connections and toss allegations her way - you could ask her yourself on her live broadcasts - she welcomes callers with a variety of opinions, alternatively challenge her on Twitter, she likes a robust discussion - I suspect none of that will happen though. It’s much easier to come on an anonymous board and tell women off for not doing feminism right.

OP posts:
BloodyHellKen · 22/12/2022 14:56

RoseslnTheHospital · 22/12/2022 14:50

This article, from 2019, is quite interesting about where political parties in the UK, US and other countries map onto each other in terms of left/right:

www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/26/opinion/sunday/republican-platform-far-right.html

I can't read that without a subscription but from what I've seen of the NY Times I'm guessing it says the Democrats are just like UK Labour and they are all the good guys not nasty and mean right wingers like the Republicans and Torys 😁

TofuonToast · 22/12/2022 14:56

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 14:21

No. Why on Earth would you think that? That’s a strange accusation to make when we are discussing what is the definition of an ideology and political movement.

You disagree that laws and societal segregation shouldn’t be determined by biology, yes?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/12/2022 14:58

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 14:09

Biology isn’t ideology, but a political movement based on the assertion that laws and societal segregation should be determined by biology is certainly an ideology.

You have misunderstood the position entirely.

I don't have an "ideological" belief that society "should" be segregated, nor laws defined, based on some abstract belief about ideology.

Actually I would much prefer that neither sex nor gender segregation were necessary.

But Women (in the female meaning of the word) have historically been socially, poltically and culturally marginalised and abused by men because of their bodies. That is an undeniable fact and changing the meaning of the word Woman now does not change what happened to those people, and why, in the past, nor its continued existence in the present.

And Women (in the female meaning of the word) have historically been financially, culturally and poltically disadvantaged because of the asymmetrical demands of reproduction and child rearing on women vs men, leaving women with fewer resources and less time to put into other activities, and compounded by the vicious circle that the more men accrued poltical, financial and social advantages, the more the standards and institutions of society were set up to accomodate male practical needs and socially accepted behavioural norms and not female ones. That is an undeniable fact and changing the meaning of the word Woman now does not change what happened to those people, and why, in the past, nor its continued impact in the present.

And these facts conspire to mean that Women (in the female meaning of the word) face risks and limitations that men (in the male sense of the word) do not, and will continue to do so until the unconscious biases that are built in the foundations of our society and culture are eradicated.

So while ideologically I may believe segregation by both sex and gender to be a bad thing, practically I believe segregating by sex is currently a necessary evil, and will remain so until society no longer disadvantages and abuses female people physically or socially.

Furthermore, I see a deep logistical inconsistency in the genderist assertion that everything we understood a woman to be based on sex is wrong, and yet everything social and legal built on that wrong basis is somehow just right, the only problem is that it should have been determined by an inner, undetectable, self-defined gender identity not the externally perceived fact of sex. I cannot see how, had we not already had those sex-based segregation, gender identity alone would have lead to them and therefore, whether or not gender identity is empirically real or not, I cannot accept the claims that are being made in its name.

It is this, not the existence or not of gender itself, that has lead me to conclude that genderist demands for social change are ideological not based in any practical understanding of womanhood or the reasons for existing sex based provisions.

I would (and have said in other threads) be not only supportive but quite excited by a social movement to recognise similar personalities, regardless of thrir sex, as meaningful groups who can legitimately lobby poltically and socially for their own needs and in some cases for that to be more relevant than sex. I think it could even be a path to a point where sex genuinely is less significant in life outcomes rather than what the genderists currently want, which is no less significant but just ignored.

What I cannot accept is the demand that sex is simply replaced by gender with everything kept the same, because despite the genderists' ideologically driven willful blindness to hearing female voices, being female in our society has consequences.

BloodyHellKen · 22/12/2022 15:02

BloodyHellKen · 22/12/2022 14:56

I can't read that without a subscription but from what I've seen of the NY Times I'm guessing it says the Democrats are just like UK Labour and they are all the good guys not nasty and mean right wingers like the Republicans and Torys 😁

@RoseslnTheHospital I stand corrected.

I managed to access the infographic only and (as I said) it shows the Republicans are far more right wing that the UK Tory Party who are almost in the cuddly centre ground.

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 15:02

BloodyHellKen · 22/12/2022 14:51

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that but I don't agree with you.

The Democrats are centrist, left or right depending on how the wind is blowing on a particular day and who is leading them. The Republicans are far, far more right wing than the Tory party and more inline with UKIP IMO.

There is no equivalent of the Labour party in the US unless you count Bernie Sanders on his own.

Its true there are no direct equivalents, but rather closest neighbours.

Conservatives in the UK and Republicans in the USA
■ Both dislike ‘big government’.
■ Both favour low taxation when the economy permits.
■ Both talk of being strong on law and order.
■ Both stress high levels of defence spending.
■ Both talk more about equality of opportunity than equality of results.

Labour in the U.K. and Democrats in the USA
■ Both put great stress on civil rights of minorities — gender, racial, sexual orientation, etc.
■ Both stress the rights of workers.
■ Both favour ‘green’ environmental policies.
■ Both want equality of opportunity, leading to equality of results.
■ Both favour high levels of government spending on health, welfare and education.
■ Both tend to favour higher levels of taxation on the more wealthy to fund services for the less well-off.

On the political spectrum, Republicans sit to the right of the Conservatives, and the Democrats sit to the right of Labour. Mostly because here in the U.K. even the Conservatives support abortion rights, abolishment of the death penalty, gun control and universal healthcare which means the U.K. spectrum sits to the left of the US spectrum.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/12/2022 15:03

Oops, typo..

I meant to say "I don't have an "ideological" belief that society "should" be segregated, nor laws defined, based on some abstract belief about biology".

RoseslnTheHospital · 22/12/2022 15:04

@BloodyHellKen managed to find an archived version of that page

web.archive.org/web/20221130124945/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/26/opinion/sunday/republican-platform-far-right.html

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 15:05

TofuonToast · 22/12/2022 14:56

You disagree that laws and societal segregation shouldn’t be determined by biology, yes?

I made an observation on how biology can be part of ideology, ergo GC is an ideology based on biology. In response to a poster arguing that GC is not an ideology but biology, which is erroneous. I made no comment insofar as agreeing or disagreeing.

BloodyHellKen · 22/12/2022 15:07

RoseslnTheHospital · 22/12/2022 15:04

Thank you :)

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 15:09

@FlirtsWithRhinos

genderist demands for social change are ideological
Of course they are. As are GC efforts to resist such social changes. It’s all ideology of one sort or another.

What I cannot accept is the demand that sex is simply replaced by gender with everything kept the same
Agree. They are two distinct things, gender and sex and are not synonymous nor inter-changeable.

TofuonToast · 22/12/2022 15:09

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 15:05

I made an observation on how biology can be part of ideology, ergo GC is an ideology based on biology. In response to a poster arguing that GC is not an ideology but biology, which is erroneous. I made no comment insofar as agreeing or disagreeing.

So do you agree or disagree that laws and societal segregation should be determined by biology?

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 15:10

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/12/2022 15:03

Oops, typo..

I meant to say "I don't have an "ideological" belief that society "should" be segregated, nor laws defined, based on some abstract belief about biology".

I gathered that. Very thoughtful post and eloquently written btw.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/12/2022 15:11

Typo 2..

"Furthermore, I see a deep logical inconsistency in the genderist assertion that everything we understood a woman to be based on sex is wrong, and yet everything social and legal built on that wrong basis is somehow just right"

Though tbf it's logistically inconsistent as well 😂

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 15:13

TofuonToast · 22/12/2022 15:09

So do you agree or disagree that laws and societal segregation should be determined by biology?

Depends. It’s something that is a case by case issue.
Im not a biological determinist by any measure.

For example, I don’t agree women should be barred from serving in the armed forces, police, or fire fighters due to biology making us physically weaker.

I also don’t agree that parental shared leave should not exist, and we only have maternity leave because biology dictates that we women do the childbearing.

sorry have to pop to dentist ttfn

BloodyHellKen · 22/12/2022 15:20

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 15:02

Its true there are no direct equivalents, but rather closest neighbours.

Conservatives in the UK and Republicans in the USA
■ Both dislike ‘big government’.
■ Both favour low taxation when the economy permits.
■ Both talk of being strong on law and order.
■ Both stress high levels of defence spending.
■ Both talk more about equality of opportunity than equality of results.

Labour in the U.K. and Democrats in the USA
■ Both put great stress on civil rights of minorities — gender, racial, sexual orientation, etc.
■ Both stress the rights of workers.
■ Both favour ‘green’ environmental policies.
■ Both want equality of opportunity, leading to equality of results.
■ Both favour high levels of government spending on health, welfare and education.
■ Both tend to favour higher levels of taxation on the more wealthy to fund services for the less well-off.

On the political spectrum, Republicans sit to the right of the Conservatives, and the Democrats sit to the right of Labour. Mostly because here in the U.K. even the Conservatives support abortion rights, abolishment of the death penalty, gun control and universal healthcare which means the U.K. spectrum sits to the left of the US spectrum.

Closest neighbours? I don't agree with aligning very different political parties with each other just because they appear on the left or right of centre. By your reckoning the CCP has overlap with the Labour party.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.

TheBiologyStupid · 22/12/2022 15:27

Onnabugeisha · 22/12/2022 14:45

@BloodyHellKen
the Conservative Party in the UK are the equivalent of the US Democrats, not the Republicans.

😂😂 No, this is simply not true. And I say that as a Brit expat who lived for over twenty years in the US. The Conservatives are most closely equivalent to the Republicans, not the Democrats.

Making comparisons between US and UK political parties is fraught with danger. There are plenty of Dems who support gun ownership, for example, but that's not something any mainstream British party would countenance. The UK's health system, free at the point of delivery, is based on a funding model that all major UK political parties support (even libertarian right-wing Conservatives would think twice before advocating scrapping the NHS). Yet in the Democratic Party, universal healthcare is supported only by progressive (and some liberal) Dems.

It was the Conservative Party that introduced same-sex marriage legislation in the UK. Again, the US political divide on this issue doesn't map onto the UK's party framework.

I'm sure that there are plenty of other examples that demonstrate that Tories=GOP is a false equivalence.

LangClegsInSpace · 22/12/2022 15:27

BloodyHellKen · 22/12/2022 14:45

@LangClegsInSpace , I didn't realise you were being ironically Trumpian. Irony doesn't always translate very well in a typed message 😂

But my point still stands. Why do so many TRAs speak in such a weird Trumpian way - I suppose it must be because so many are American or spend their time on US based forums.

Yeah, sorry I was taking the piss out of the pop-up posters 😂

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