Will we die out?

[MsRosley]

Saw someone tweeting last night that any rally in support of women's rights is a 'sea of grey' and that opposition to trans rights would die out with the older generation. Given that all the terfs I know are older women, is he right? I'm trying to marshall the counter arguments in my head.

Feminists won't die out any more than gay people will die out. They may have to find a way to manage within a regime that does not recognise their human rights, just as people in the past had to.
And they will do, just as people in the past had to.

I think that what will happen is that the women who are currently young will grow older and greyer, and some of them will start to see things differently.

Nope. Life tends to make people grow up and change their views on things. I can guarantee that many if the young TRA women will start to see how shit life is for women as they get older and see exactly where we are coming from.

No. You only have to look at the number of young women posting tik toks pushing back on Dylan Mulvaney and to see the young women fighting for their sport.

It is a pipe dream that we are 'dinosaurs' and will 'die out'.

It also means that they forget that we were once young and it is life experience that has led us to push back on this issue.

Today's 'sea of grey' is yesterday's 'be kind'

It does seem to be younger women who are in favour of TWAW and making sure that men are at the centre of what they do. But at the risk of sounding patronising, when they grow up a bit they will realise what we were fighting for.

And I would also say that the majority of people I know are my age or a bit older, so it perhaps isn't surprising that you don't know any young terven women.

So I don't think that opposition will die out - I certainly hope not, anyway - because the young women currently in favour of TWAW will become the grey haired opponents in time

No really not!
Apart from things other posters have mentioned, detransitioners AND their families are going to become a massive group of very angry and probably very litigious people. It's going to be very interesting in a few years.

No there are enough teenagers who also agree that it is nonsense.

Yes, I agree life experience will teach the younger handmaidens a thing or two. And what I keep reminding myself is ours are not simply a set of vague opinions or prejudices, but pointers to things happening in the real world: males winning women's sports, males using trans ideology to access women's prisons, children being put on puberty blockers, etc. For this guy to be right, everyone would have to stop noticing these things, and I can't see that happening.

I actually had this thought yesterday.

We could be the last people in earth who remember / know the definition of a woman before it all changed....

Even among students, I think support for gender identity ideology is restricted to a vocal minority. They are strident and overpowering, but not close to a majority. Many young people are sick of this being pushed to the forefront. I’m on my phone, so can’t flick to another thread, but the thread with all the Times links has one that discusses support (or the lack thereof) from voters in Scotland for self-ID, including from younger age groups, albeit at a lower level than other demographics.

And yes, many visible single sex supporting feminists are older, but it takes maturity and a huge amount of self-confidence to stand up and be counted when it’s obvious so much opprobium will be heaped on you. In addition, more older women are financially able to take the risk. Those with young families often cannot afford the potential loss of earnings.

And while it is taking some time for the huge tanker that is transactivism to be turned around, I think it will happen eventually. You can push policy makers to create policies and laws the majority disagree with, but eventually laws that are obviously flawed and unfair will be reversed. I’m pretty sure that prioritising male feelings over women’s rights comes into that category.

Young women are waking up to the misogyny of trans activism every day. For example all the young female athletes whose podium places are being stolen by males may not yet be vocal about how much they disagree with what is going on but you can’t suppress reality forever so it will never die out.

No. There are people of all ages who are feminists or see what it's really about. Homogenised opinion remains unlikely.
The greys are often more visible because life experience has made it harder for them to be quiet about it and there's less at stake to be open with their opinions.
Young women still have to actively negotiate living and working with men! Us grey(ish) women have already settled a lot of those negotiations.

eventually laws that are obviously flawed and unfair will be reversed. I’m pretty sure that prioritising male feelings over women’s rights comes into that category.

Depressingly, it seems that there are always, always men and women who will agitate and legislate for policies to be reinstated that disadvantage women. It's not hard to look for examples worldwide.

I'm trying to marshall the counter arguments in my head.

I'm not sure I'd bother trying to persuade the person making this point. You've used he so I'm going to assume they are male, this male person will never experience misogyny or have a baby so it's rather arrogant of them to assume that the young women who currently seem so accepting of their own erasure won't see things slightly differently as they get older.

I think there is also a strong likelihood that some younger women may not want to be alienated by their peer group so may outwardly appear to agree with him whilst inwardly thinking gender ideology is nonsense, they will grow in confidence as they age and be prepared to challenge it. In fact I sometimes wonder if they will explode with rage when they realise what going along with a lie has cost them.

The final reason I disagree is that no amount of delusion can change reality, a lie at odds with reality cannot be sustained.

No! It's just as you get older the fucks you give about the potential backlash reduce hugely so older women are more visible.

I remember 10 years ago scoffing at women who couldn't accept Trans rights with what I thought was an insightful 'gotcha' about how we all had unisex toilets at home.

Then a lesbian friend explained in basic terms the cotton ceiling and the walls came tumbling down. I was in my early 30's. Women's sports sealed the deal for me.

I've explained similarly to much younger friends whose immediate reactions have been in the 'be kind', 'omg she's a bigot' vein. We talked some more. All are now vociferous GC. One has become a GC activist.

We've had 'gender' equality discussions at work and a pleasing number of young women have been asking the right questions. In our private discussions it's been clear that they are GC but are reticent to say too much for fear of it impacting their career at a pivotal stage. Who can blame them.

It's simple visibility of those who are willing to speak out and feel they have less to lose. Many many more are waiting in the wings. We need to get past the 'toilet' discussion and start honest conversations about women's sports, safety in prisons, 'female' leadership quotas, healthcare , refuges etc. That is where this issue becomes more visceral and the awareness happens.

There's plenty who have uncertainties but who either don't know enough or are scared to speak out.

Also, that Yougov survey was chilling about the fact that so many young people cannot actually articulate their views due to fear of ostracisation.

When you have such intolerance in the group of 18-28 year olds that they cannot be honest with their mates, you know damn well that those 18-28 year olds are not going to keep quiet once they reach the age where they don't care anymore, have new friends or simply enough has been published that the threats of being 'phobic' are empty.

This era will go down as being a scandal in more ways than one.

There are plenty of people in their forties in the GC movement, or with these opinions but unable to speak out. I'm only 40 (only - ha! that probably sounds funny to these 20yos) and most of my peers think it's a lot of nonsense. However, we do live somewhere that was an early adopter of all things trans, so a lot of people have had enough of walking on eggshells to people who are extremely rude in return.

These kids are also in for a shock when they realise how early you can go grey!
They are also not going to get their "victory" until they reach retirement age, it's so childish to think 20yos are the future but 40 yos are past it - do they not realise that people live to about 80.

What I'm finding fascinating is the number of young men working in tech who have started to raise the subject in DH's social circles.

These are classic hipster leftie type guys.

Yet they've started to be much more vocal and talking about it openly - they think the whole thing is bollocks amongst themselves. Think age 20 to 30.

This is a definite shift. DH has been surprised by it.

But awareness has definitely spread. A couple of my older friends who have always been 'be kind' types have suddenly started to question how women fit in with some of this stuff. And pronouns have firmly sent them over the edge. Think 'mmmmeeddiiiaa darlings' in their 50s.

None of these would actively go to one of these protests, but they are getting pissed.

So i think the message is broadening rather than growing old. And if the message is broadening, that makes it harder to legislate in ways against the public without a backlash. In becoming more mainstream, the niche protests get more visible and the craziness becomes more identifiable.

These screaming in the face of women do more work than the greying old ladies do...

No. Young woman here (20s). We cannot be as vocal for fear of ostracism from peer group and at work etc. But I know plenty of women (and men) who share my views. Quietly.

Any younger woman who takes the “no comment/I don’t know enough about it” type line is probably a full feminist in reality. But doesn’t want to be called transphobic.

The tide is massively turning in the younger generation, as in all age groups.

I'm in my 30s. I do have some friends I don't discuss this with but many of my similar age friends feel exactly like me.

I found on recently my manager is full out 'terf'. He is because his wife and his daughters have influenced him. His daughters are late 20s and early 30s.

It's a huge mistake to assume younger women don't get this. They absolutely do but at the moment many, like me, don't have the security or confidence to be really open and loud about it. But we will still vote in the way that benefits women, will donate to movements where we can and influence our friends and family.

No, I think as you age you care less and less about what others think, especially where the truth is at stake.

Btw I do think if the trendy leftie young men in DH's circles think its bollocks, many of the women they know will also agree. I just don't have so much direct or indirect contact with them. The men talking openly, will encourage the women in their circles to do the same imho.

There’s a couple of us young’uns here.

The last month I’ve been thinking of doing more than very casually inserting GC views into convos. Where do we sign up to protest?

@RedToothBrush That’s so interesting to hear about young men in tech. My husband also thinks it’s all bollocks. He has a very black and white approach to it which seems typically male (they’re clearly, visibly men. They are men enjoying exercising their power over women. End of). I think you don’t get as many men pretending to believe TWAW.

The 'grey ones' are visible because they have no fucks left to give.

They can do this because they have more security in their positions. There are many who still cannot do this, but are fully conscious of the harm being done. And that is OK if they can still add support in other ways.

There is so much fallacious thinking, but it is consistent. If you believe that males can become females in any way, you are also likely to believe it when activists tell you (general you) that you are the majority.

Like that Scottish Yougov poll found. 2/3 of Scotland completely disagrees with self id. Just over 20% agree with it.

Yet, even on this board daily still we are told the 'majority' support trans rights.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4698418-the-times-rape-crisis-founder-backs-jkr-23-voters-oppose-grr-sturgeon-husband-and-snp-loan-and-film-screening-stories