Will we die out?

[MsRosley]

Saw someone tweeting last night that any rally in support of women's rights is a 'sea of grey' and that opposition to trans rights would die out with the older generation. Given that all the terfs I know are older women, is he right? I'm trying to marshall the counter arguments in my head.

I don’t think so, no. Whilst it doesn’t seem like it if you’re very invested and involved in trans and gender issues – either on the TRA or GC side – at the moment, the percentage of people who genuinely give the whole shebang any headspace is pretty small. The majority of the population, if they think about transpeople at all, are still thinking of traditional “real” transpeople: the very small number of dysphoric people who have always existed and just wanted to quietly get on with their lives acting as the opposite sex and trying to fit in as best they can without bothering anyone or being bothered – hence why this group are still of the “be kind” mindset. They don’t have much awareness of the new alphabet mafia of various gender identities, and feelings that need to be “validated” with ever-increasing assaults on women’s rights, or the ideology that you can simply decide which sex you are on a whim, or change it weekly and so on.

However, as public visibility of the latter ideology begins to grow, and more and more people see the absolute ridiculousness of it and that acceptance of transpeople is no longer simply about being kind to a tiny number of poor dysphoric souls but accepting erosion of safeguarding and women’s rights, resistance will increase. That’s where a lot of currently unspoken support for being GC lies: it just doesn’t know it yet.

Speak for yourself. I've been a rights hoarding dinosaur since the age of 28. I'm 32 now.

Women my age are a lot more clued on than you would be led to believe.

I have to stay quiet at work (and on social media etc, anything that could be traced back to my work) because I have a young family to support.

If I was older I would be going to events, rallies. I’d love to be more involved. But can’t risk it right now. But hugely admire the women who do.

It’s tempting to be down on young women when some seem to be behaving terribly (anyone remember the young female TRA working for Brighton MP Lloyd Russel-Moyle shouting at a baby?) but I agree, this would be a mistake.

We all age, we all die. And I’d rather die knowing I defended truth, reason and women’s rights instead of selling out.

No, we won’t. I am in my early 40s and not planning to go anywhere. They can’t continue to indoctrinate young people with the same intensity and lack of scrutiny they once enjoyed, and as youngsters age they will see the world and biology for what it really is.

I think people will also come to better understand delusional disorders and how toxic behaviours and relationships allow this kind of emotional blackmailing and manipulation.

Also, remember how much of the TRA output is a projection/ DARVO of their own fears and behavioural tactics.

They fear they will be the ones to die out so they have to quash that fear and feel powerful by trying to put it onto us. They try to make us feel their feelings.. but this tells us so much about them! They have no insight into their own psychology.

Let's not forget the WOC either and/or those with religious beliefs. There isn't much support from these groups for gender ideology, even amongst young women.

I haven't discounted young teenagers either, although it seems to depend on the school environment. There are more and more teens (boys and girls) rejecting gender ideology.

I agree with most of the above. While there is a generational divide, it's perhaps not as big as we think. The young people who turn up to intimidate women (as in Edinburgh last night) are a very vocal minority. Amongst the rest, there are a lot of young women who don't support them but are frightened to say so, as well as young men who are less frightened to speak out because, well, they're men.

Given these are men very active on social media, and less invested in reading old media it's particularly interesting.

I get a sense that they are noticing an unhinged element and an unravelling going on. I do think pronouns are a particular wind up that gets backs up. The compelled speech isn't winning support.

I think there's also a growing feeling that in having this 'most vulnerable of all narrative' and then seeing the screeching harpies on social media shut down conversation and create fear, that they really aren't as powerless as they make out. People are tiring of giving good will only to have it thrown in their faces for being trans phobic all the same.

If I reflect back on why I initially had issues with the movement, it came down to be me being pre-judged as bigoted before doing anything whilst actually being open minded about it. As the attacks grew, I started to question more and go 'hang on a second here, I'm not a twat, and I want to give people the benefit of the doubt, but this cannot be one way traffic'.

The authoritarianism of the movement is the very thing that I think will bring the weight of its own self importance crashing down around its own ears and scandals start to roll out on scale.

How much the vested parties in politics will try and cover it up and plough on with it in the meantime is more of an interesting question for me.

No way and never :)

Thing is misogynists are also often all the other "ists" and this is an example of them being ageist.

I think there's going to be an awkward generation who were indoctrinated in schools/ online before their parents had a clue what was going on. But many of today's younger kids, with parents in their late 20s, 30s and 40s, are going to have parents who actively push back.

There are a lot of flavours of "this is bullshit" out there. Some of my friends are coming at it from a softly softly stance and others are far more straight talking than the kind of (often) lefty rad fem one sees on MN.

The one factor which will mean trans ideology will never win by stealth as it was supposed to is .... MEN! A significant minority of males (gender ID irrelevant here) continue to act like stereotypically abusive males, using the myriad of loopholes trans ideology ushered in to get away with it. It is the speaking over, award taking, funding diverting, offensively parodying, space invading, voyeuristic, clothes stealing, erection exposing, paedopilia apologising, sexually abusing MALES who fuck this up time and time again.

They do seem to be ramping up the ageism recently.

Don't worry OP. My teenagers are very firmly GC. I think there will be a new wave of GC young people as it starts to sink in that their right to have safe spaces is eroded...

I was just thinking that it’s funny how the intersectional oppressions that never seem to be condemned are misogyny and ageism. And yet here we are, being Terfed and Karened all over the place for standing up for ourselves.

One of the features of a cult is its only sustainable if it continues to maintain recruitment levels.

Theres significant problems with this, that are occurring in the UK - the fall out from the Tavistock and Mermaids, and the new cause for the lefties being the economic crisis not identity politics.

Without being able to maintain the influence in schools, NHS, etc etc it weakens the number of fanatics out there. The former 'allies' merely move onto the next trendy cause, leaving the hard core on their own. The more respectable flying monkeys working on their behalf are disappearing, leaving the more extreme elements leading the charge...

The final reason I disagree is that no amount of delusion can change reality, a lie at odds with reality cannot be sustained.

Yes FJON This is the hope I hold on to.

Bad news for young women is that they become old women. With a lifetime experience of how many men are. And what lies they tell to present themselves as "safe".
We aren't dying out.

However, as public visibility of the latter ideology begins to grow,

I think this is the crux of it.

How many times are we told to shut up or to confine conversation to the feminist boards because people want to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend this is not happening.

I think the more we resist this and say no, 'I'm not shutting up because you find the conversation difficult' the harder it will be for people to claim ignorance to the impact of the ideology on women and girls.

`People need the 'be kind' scales to fall off and they will eventually.

We’re not going to die out.

We’re the granddaughters of the witches they weren’t able to burn.

No, as awful as it seems now, I don't think it will. A couple of years ago, I couldn't discuss this issue with DD, who was then at 6th form college, as she was so captured by it all. Many of her fellow students were declaring themselves to be "trans" and there was definitely an element of contagion.

This is the only thing we have really fallen out about and we both found it very upsetting. I didn't back down though. I told her that I had to continue to hold out against this pernicious cult precisely because I want to protect her and her rights, and I would do that even though she disagreed with me.

When she attended university, for a long time it appeared that nothing had changed in her approach but, more recently, she told me she has changed her mind. This is partly due to her becoming friendly with other students who are GC. However, one trigger of change came when she had to deal with a tall, bearded man who declared himself to be non-binary, and who held everyone else hostage to his rampant narcissism. It was then that her eyes were opened.

At the moment, she and her GC friends have to remain quiet in order not to draw attention to themselves (as do I when I am in the company of strangers), but I am hopeful that as the scales fall from more and more eyes, the progress that this men's rights movement has made will be rolled back.

IIRC, it was Jane Clare Jones who said something along the lines of 'Looking at it historically, it's not women's turn to be kind'. I can go along with that. I will never be kind to anyone who screams in the face of women and girls, who push them about and throw smoke bombs when they're trying to talk with each other.

No.

Our local secondary school had a discussion on the subject recently. 'Trans' as a concept was not supported. I'm not talking self ID - I'm saying that the youths (ages 13-15) thought that 'trans' was a made up idea that they didn't think was real. This was virtually the whole class. They know that it's not possible to change sex, and that clothes and hair doesn't have any bearing on your sex. Most young people are not fools.

Genderism is a flash in the pan, that has captured a specific generation. They are already being pushed aside by younger people who find the ideology ridiculous and the fashions, aesthetic, and ideas passe. I'd say it's also largely the more privileged who have gone full bore for gender ideas - outwith the environs of certain circles, most people have caught up, and lost all patience with these luxury beliefs.

I expect that a few stragglers will continue in the same vein as punks, goths, and other social subcultures. But the adoption of genderism in legal, academic, govt contexts, etc, will be gradually dismantled.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bdf96958-7c02-11ed-bcd8-855e06175970?shareToken=a8873d488ae0751017c66553578cf5a7

That's good to know, Arabella.

There's a poll on the Times piece asking 'Do you agree with the SNP’s gender reform plans?' currently with 318 votes and 99% say 'No'.

I'm another young terf. I disagree with some of my 'woke' friends and we debate about the topic but in a friendly way. I feel too that this is just a passing 'trend' much like punks, goths, emo. Teenagers need a way to rebel and feel different and special

We could be the last people in earth who remember / know the definition of a woman before it all changed....

Nonsense, people will always know what a woman is. It's just that people are being forced to keep two contradictory things in their heads: what they know to be true, and what they know they have to say to not be ostracised.

Orwell called this doublethink.

A lot of these young women will wise up when life shits on them from a great height, as it invariable does.