Is feminism unfairly demonising boys/men?

[Axolotlquestions]

I'm seeing a lot of pushback at feminism in 'gender critical' circles because it's being lumped in with critical social justice. That is, the mentality that says all white people carry the guilt of centuries of racism is also applied to the concept of sexism, with all men being blamed for patriarchy. I'm trying to get my head around my position on this.

Could the wise feminist minds of Mumsnet take a look at this and give me your thoughts?
genspect.org/girls-are-better-than-boys/

I think that feminism has demonised men and boys, and this approach of men should fix their problems in my view is illogical. Men and boys are not a homogenous group just as women are not a homogenous group - in fact any large mass of people who are born with a characteristic just happen to have this common. The individuals within that group are different and have different views and behavioural characteristic - they are not police, judge and jury of this group nor should they be.

Did you watch the video? Some of the women interviewed also worked, in some others the men worked and the women stayed home but the question then seemed to focus on weekend. When frankly the workload should be shared regardless of who worked where during the week. There was also a man who didn't work.
The 1950's ideal of a housewife waiting at home baking pies all day surrounded by labour saving modern appliances while hubby was at the office was always more of an American middle class/aspirational idea. I am sure it reflected some women in the UKs/Australia/elsewhere's lives - but its become a weird sort of idealised vision of a past for some men that never existed in the way they think it did.

@twelly no-one is saying that men are homogenous. But the fact is that in some cases boys might relate better to adult men than women telling them the same thing. E.g. a mum could tell her son a thousand times to clean his room, that he'd be a lot happier if he went for a walk, suggest that he looks lovely in a suit and maybe he should make an effort with girls if he wants a girlfriend and that would be ignored/seen as proof that she was a total b who didn't understand him. Jordan Peterson can say exactly the same thing but dressed up in 1 1/2 hours of intellectualising about the hero's journey/the bible and he's a GENIUS who changed said young man's life. Sometimes the message giver and the way the message is delivered matters. Especially where men have been told that all women are out to get them by predatory/damaged older men online. And sometimes men need male friends.

51% of women of a working age were in work in 1965. That's half of women working, not most women not working.

So if you are a sensitive boy with undiagnosed ADD and ASD, who likes reading and art and are super bright but struggle to focus at school and therefore constantly feel like you are failing and don't quite sync with the other kids and experience years of low level bullying, then you can feel a nebulous shame at your apparent inability to fit in and cope...

But, at least from what I see online, these aren't the boys doing it. Not the quiet, geeky boys who spend time in the library and prefer spending time with the girls because they find the boys a bit loud and obnoxious.

The ones I see trying this are the obnoxious ones. The ones that are looking for a wrinkle to control people with, but can't manage it with the boys, so go for the more accommodating girls. The slightly creepy ones who the girls would otherwise be a bit wary of.

@Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead no - according to this very accurate documentary in times past men were men, women were women and everything was simpler and better

51% of women of a working age were in work in 1965. That's half of women working, not most women not working.

And I might add there's going to be a fair few more working part-time that weren't counted - like my nan, who did all the secretarial and books for my grandad's business (repairman - so it was a lot of paperwork), but he wouldn't let her pay herself/go on the payroll because he felt that she shouldn't be working... no, it doesn't make sense - especially not tax-wise either.

Or my other nan who was a cleaner, out every morning, but it was cash in hand (common in her area at the time)

Can you explain how in your opinion feminism has demonised men and boys?

When you say it's illogical to expect men to fix their own problems, are you saying that in response to the statement that feminism is not directly advocating for men and boys?

@Dreamwhisper probably I should have said "some feminists" rather than the whole movement - where men as a group are all seen as the problem. On various threads it is said and in rl that men should sort out men - which is in my view illogical.

I don't think all men can sort out all men. But most social control comes from our peer groups/friends especially when young. For most girls/women that's going to be other girls/women for most boys/men that's other boys/men. And yes, girls socially control each other a lot (sometimes too much and negatively).

On various threads it is said and in rl that men should sort out men - which is in my view illogical.

That’s the second time you’ve used the word “illogical” in this vague, hand waving way. Could you explain what you think are the underlying logic and premises of the idea “men should sort out men’s problems?” And where you think it goes wrong?

Are you just using “illogical” to mean “ideas I don’t agree with?” That isn’t really how logic works.

I sense that you have picked up that there are problems among demographics of men stemming from their disillusionment with their perception of their own representation in society.

However, it's a typical trap that these types of men fall into, to turn around and blame women. And when they can't target individual women as a reason for their discontent, they blame the "feminism" for it.

Do you realise that the aims of feminism are there to tackle issues that women and girls face? That's not saying that men don't face issues too. I'll even let you in on a secret - patriarchal societies with their idealised archetypes of both men and women, are the cause of this pain. Not women.

Stop making feminism a negative thing because it's not about you. It's about lifting women and girls up, not bringing men down. Stop viewing it as an attack on men. Adding the weak caveat of "oh okay only some feminists" is not sufficient to hide your dislike of women.

There is no "logical" reason to be against feminism or to find feminism a threat to men. It's just a way to dress up misogyny into a more socially acceptable form. I would not be against men rallying around their own social issues, if it weren't for the fact that they always seek to blame women for their problems.

It's really insidious actually. Even without looking at wider societal issues, like gender pay gaps, removal or pushback against womens' reproductive rights and bodily autonomy, etc, the threat women face from some ordinary men is demonstrable in huge numbers. Domestic violence, sexual assault, harassment. Feminism seeks to address these demonstrable inequalities and injustices. Feminism wants to do something about it.

However a lot of what I see from, for example, MRA movements, focuses so much on why women are bad, and how our own suffering and victimhood is actually more of a problem for men, than for women. Instead of focusing on the very real issues men face in this world today, and thinking what can we do about it, they use those issues as fuel for their already existing misogyny. They're tod by EACHOTHER, not women, that they're undesirable, or should feel guilty, or that the world hates them.

So what we mean by "men sorting out men", is actually simply, stop expecting feminism to cater to men. Support men's mental and physical health without constantly relating those issues to how women are at fault. Stop hating feminism. Stop coming onto feminist threads repeatedly using the word "illogical" (aka irrational aka hysterical) when you have literally nothing to back up your justification of how feminism is out to get all the poor men and boys, and is not actually just there to attempt to protect women from the many, many injustices women face all over the world just for simply being women. Regardless of age, race, class. Women are abused or held back all over the world just for being women. This is why feminism exists.

@Dreamwhisper to summarise

😂 Exactly 👏

that men should sort out men

Who else should sort out men then?
Who will men listen to?

TikTok 'feminism' to a certain extent does.

But I doubt many here would call that feminism.

Very well said, Dreamwhisper.

It's for black people to fix their own problems and the dangerous feckers who are black people. White supremacy is for white men and women.

🤷‍♀️

Quite. I don't go round judging "all men" by the incel forums on Reddit.

A little critical thinking is in order when we are talking about ideas that affect the whole world, which is full of literally billions of people with differing opinions and life experiences.

Seeking out individuals or small groups of people, whose motivations are not easily able to be determined in the first place, and applying that to something as large and universal as women's rights, is not really the way to go about things. It might bring you satisfaction through confirmation bias, but it's hardly an accurate portrayal any genuine reality.

As I've no doubt the 'racism' card will be the first one thrown at me, I'd like to pose a few questions.

• What are the criteria by which it's more acceptable to discriminate against some protected characteristics than others?
• If you believe that men's high offending rate of sexual crime etc is a valid reason, do you also believe we can discriminate against black people for being 'over represented at every stage of the criminal justice system' as stated by the ONS?
• If not as bad a class as men, can we just discriminate against them a little bit. Like be slightly more wary of black people?

I know it's a very distasteful topic but I think changing the context is often illuminating, especially where discrimination has become ingrained. I first became aware of this after reading a comment about discrimination against men which suggested that if you weren't sure if it was sexist then replace 'men' with 'Jews' or 'black people'.

You are right. It is racist to imply that black people commit more than 90% of violent crimes and more than 98% of sexual crimes. That’s what you’ve chosen to do by comparing male criminality to black criminality. It’s an absolutely disgusting comparison to make.

And on top of that your questions are meaningless nonsense, because you haven’t defined what you mean by “discriminate.”

So, what's the magic percentage that determines whether it's OK to discriminate against a protected group?

Can we incrementally discriminate based on percentage values?

Yes, I felt icky using that analogy but that's because we're socially conditioned to feel empathy for some groups and not others.

Well said @Dreamwhisper and @namitynamechange

@MrGHardy Ah, I called it "Tumblr feminism" but Tiktok feminism sounds more up to date.

As already stated, your questions are meaningless nonsense, because you haven’t defined what you mean by “discriminate.”