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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is feminism unfairly demonising boys/men?

221 replies

Axolotlquestions · 07/12/2022 08:56

I'm seeing a lot of pushback at feminism in 'gender critical' circles because it's being lumped in with critical social justice. That is, the mentality that says all white people carry the guilt of centuries of racism is also applied to the concept of sexism, with all men being blamed for patriarchy. I'm trying to get my head around my position on this.

Could the wise feminist minds of Mumsnet take a look at this and give me your thoughts?
genspect.org/girls-are-better-than-boys/

OP posts:
SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · 07/12/2022 10:07

^Girls seem to understand all these rules so much better than you do, as if they have an inborn
grasp of them. No one needs to come out and say it because you can clearly see for yourself
that girls are better than boys.^

Christ, I'm happy to opt out at the first paragraph - this dude has NO IDEA of the policing girls undergo to get to this understanding of the rules....

And as to the bad at math thing not being propagated - tell that to my A-level physics teacher 20 years ago, who was very clear about not wanting girls in his class.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 07/12/2022 10:16

As a member of the privileged group,

The problem is that this bit always requires an admission of guilt, culpability. As if being born white in an historically and predominantly white country is a sin in and of itself. Talk to a man like my DH, dragged up by a single mother who used him as an emotional punchbag, in a very poor household. Tell him that because his reaction to this was to step outside the bounds of his family, his social group and to do something different that means he is privileged by mere dint of being white. You will be met with an aggressive tirade of abuse, plain talking and probably a boot up your arse.

Instead of blaming individuals, laying that moral obligation on an individual because they are, or are not something that has been identified as 'bad' we need to tell the sellers of that trite bollocks to come back when they have a suggestion that does not involve replacing one set of hate beliefs with another.

This white, older, woman as the most privileged shite is, like a lot of divisive politics, not for the benefit of anyone who is being harmed by racism, ageism, sexism etc.

And yes. I am fully aware that this will be held up as another of those "MN is so racist and getting worse" posts. Presumably by people who believe that, as a white older woman, I am the very devil!

OmiOmy · 07/12/2022 10:22

As a member of the privileged group, not being sexist or racist yourself isn't enough.

That is only if you believe in privilege and want to do something about it. That's you imposing your views on someone else. As I've said before, the concept of privilege is a viewpoint not the "truth".

Helleofabore · 07/12/2022 10:23

I read this article too.

I am glad I am not the only person who read it and thought, what the actual fuck is this crap?

What a twisted view of the world!

Brefugee · 07/12/2022 10:23

have not RTFT.
To answer the question: no.

Now I'll read the thread.

Albgo · 07/12/2022 10:24

I read the article. Here's my take on it: the guy that wrote it as an absolute prick.

ChateauMargaux · 07/12/2022 10:25

Gender inequality disproportionately affects women and girls. In most societies, they have lower status and have less control over decision-making about their bodies, in their intimate relationships, families and communities, exposing them to violence, coercion and harmful practices. Women and girls face high risks of unintended pregnancies, sexually transmitted infections including HIV, cervical cancer, malnutrition and depression, amongst others. Gender inequality also poses barriers for women and girls to access health information and critical services, including restrictions on mobility, lack of decision-making autonomy, limited access to finances, lower literacy rates and discriminatory attitudes of healthcare providers. Source WHO.

This does not address the question of the proportion of global wealth held by men, the percentage of men in positions of power, influence and decision making again, all disproportionately stacked against women.

MillyMollyManky · 07/12/2022 10:28

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 07/12/2022 10:16

As a member of the privileged group,

The problem is that this bit always requires an admission of guilt, culpability. As if being born white in an historically and predominantly white country is a sin in and of itself. Talk to a man like my DH, dragged up by a single mother who used him as an emotional punchbag, in a very poor household. Tell him that because his reaction to this was to step outside the bounds of his family, his social group and to do something different that means he is privileged by mere dint of being white. You will be met with an aggressive tirade of abuse, plain talking and probably a boot up your arse.

Instead of blaming individuals, laying that moral obligation on an individual because they are, or are not something that has been identified as 'bad' we need to tell the sellers of that trite bollocks to come back when they have a suggestion that does not involve replacing one set of hate beliefs with another.

This white, older, woman as the most privileged shite is, like a lot of divisive politics, not for the benefit of anyone who is being harmed by racism, ageism, sexism etc.

And yes. I am fully aware that this will be held up as another of those "MN is so racist and getting worse" posts. Presumably by people who believe that, as a white older woman, I am the very devil!

Thanks for responding. I certainly didn't mean to imply that all men are privileged over all women in every way, or all white people over all black people in every way- that clearly isn't true. One can be a member of a privileged group in one respect while also suffering from a whole array of other disadvantages. Perhaps it's the word "privilege" that causes the issue here- not sure what other word would be better.

I don't think that acknowledging membership of a group which has historically had advantages requires an admission of culpability at all- it's simply a fact.

Helleofabore · 07/12/2022 10:30

AlisonDonut · 07/12/2022 09:43

I'm surprised Stella has fallen for this shite.

I was surprised to see it. But then again, maybe it is about letting all people express their thoughts even if they seem to be missing some pretty major issues and it comes across as claiming some kind of victimhood.

The point is that this could well be being held up as the thinking that is behind male transition.

In all its twisted glory!!!

Brefugee · 07/12/2022 10:32

God that article made my eyes glaze over within the first few lines. But i guess i got the gist of it from the thread.

It's for men to fix their own problems and the dangerous feckers who are men. Feminism is for women and girls.
Why ? When it's a problem being foisted on them by woman.
men and women alike need to be better

I have no energy any more to try to help men. I say this a lot but i (used to) spend International Men's Day (19th Nov) tweeting men's health, mental health and other interesting resources. And all i ever got in return was "wah wah wah but nobody set up a google doodle for me, wah wah wah we can't have men's refuges"

And it boils down to (not all men, sigh, i KNOW) that the majority just want someone to deliver answers, solutions and so on. They don't want the grind, like Erin Pizzey had in her day, of begging, borrowing, stealing and cajoling to get a women's refuge set up. And so on. So i concentrate on Women's issues and let the men sort themselves out.

Toxic Masculinity is A Thing. It doesn't mean masculinity is toxic.
Mansplaining is A Thing. If you think it is every time a man says something to a woman you don't understand what it is.
etc etc.

OmiOmy · 07/12/2022 10:32

The problem is that this bit always requires an admission of guilt, culpability. As if being born white in an historically and predominantly white country is a sin in and of itself.

This. And everything else in your post samphire

Helleofabore · 07/12/2022 10:32

Albgo · 07/12/2022 10:24

I read the article. Here's my take on it: the guy that wrote it as an absolute prick.

Is it a personal view? Or a representation on views expressed by males who wish to think they are women?

I mean, it reads not just a little like an incel wrote it.

Was that the point being made by the article?

Palmfrond · 07/12/2022 10:33

Wtf did I just read?? That article (?!) was like some kind of unintentional fan fiction cissy porn for constipated Spectator readers.

Personally as a dad of two boys, I do not feel we are demonized by feminism, no, not in any way.

Is masculine identity at a crisis point in our culture? Yes and no. It doesn’t have to be, but I can see for many men and boys it is, but the blame for that belongs squarely at the feet of government policy which waives responsibility for social needs in favour of large economic/corporate interests, and in doing so have replaced community with consumerism, ie computer games, football, social media.

But that has zero to do with feminism

ArabellaScott · 07/12/2022 10:35

Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead · 07/12/2022 10:01

Also I'm struggling to tie together

Women are treated better and have life easier

With

Sexual excitement from the humiliation from seeing yourself as a woman

How can women be both simultaneously the better sex and it be humiliating for a man to be seen as a woman?

Yes, he's almost got it, but spectacularly fails to grasp the main point.

I think he's eroticising his guilt to avoid actually thinking about it.

OmiOmy · 07/12/2022 10:37

I don't think that acknowledging membership of a group which has historically had advantages requires an admission of culpability at all- it's simply a fact.

But what is the point for the individual? Why should what happened eg the British Empire have any bearing on the white individual on the street except as part of history of UK.

Imicola · 07/12/2022 10:38

It's not all men...BUT, it is almost always men who perpetrate sexual crimes or sexual harassment, and almost all women have experienced sexual harassment or assault. I think similar could be said around DV, murder etc...mostly men who perpetrate, and women are disproportionately affected.

It's important these issues are not forgotten, and we need boys and men to understand this so that they can support a positive change.

And I agree, feminism should centre the needs of women and girls. Men need to tackle the issues that they specifically experience (e.g. focus on poor mental health, anger management, whatever other stuff they feel is most important for men and boys). I think the narrative that feminism demonises men and boys comes directly from Men's Rights Activists (aka misogynists)

BellaAmorosa · 07/12/2022 10:39

TheYummyPatler · 07/12/2022 09:34

Maybe men should simply take more
responsibility for this stuff. Not just say, ‘oh I’m not like that’.

Let’s face it, men as a group will change their behaviour when other men challenge and ostracise them for their problematic behaviour.

And boys need much better male role models.

Exactly right.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/12/2022 10:40

I mostly agree with you, Milly. I tend to use the word advantage rather than privilege and there are some more complexities inherent but I thought you put it really well.

CarPoor · 07/12/2022 10:41

Yeah it's an absolute load of wank

Boys gets told off but they can't help it. Girls never get told off. Girls innately know how to behave.

They are taught that all men are bad. Not sure by who.

Boys watch porn, but again they can't help it. Then they watch bad porn but again not their fault. Poor poor men. They learn about rape culture, they worry they might be a rapist because they want to do things with their body and aren't sure how to do this without raping people. Again apparently not something he has control over

They want to be an ally to women, but the bad porn they can't not watch gets in the way. So you become trans

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to feel sorry for men or be terrified that these people are becoming trans.

CarPoor · 07/12/2022 10:42

Aso that article rather indicates it is all men.

It's literally saying they can't help watching bad porn and wanting to rape

OmiOmy · 07/12/2022 10:45

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/12/2022 10:40

I mostly agree with you, Milly. I tend to use the word advantage rather than privilege and there are some more complexities inherent but I thought you put it really well.

I prefer the word advantage too.

The language of privilege is part of identity politics, CRT etc and I just have a knee jerk reaction against it.

BellaAmorosa · 07/12/2022 10:45

MillyMollyManky · 07/12/2022 10:04

I don't think I agree with your characterisation of patriarchy as something all men are blamed for. Rather, I think it's better to think of patriarchy as a system which privileges men over women and which all men therefore benefit from, whether they want to or not. When a man becomes aware of this unfairness, he should do what he can to counteract and end it. Not doing this is where the blame lies, rather simply in having been born male.

Likewise CSJ- I don't think the argument is that every white person is to be blamed for the existence of racism. Rather, we should recognise that we live within a system that privileges white people over people of colour, and white people should do what we can to counteract and end that unfairness. The blame lies in not doing so, rather than simply in having been born white.

All this implies that there's a moral obligation to actively oppose prejudice, rather than simply go through life without thinking about it. As a member of the privileged group, not being sexist or racist yourself isn't enough.

This is how I understand it anyway- would welcome other people's thoughts.

I think you have put this very clearly.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 07/12/2022 10:46

I don’t think it’s even possible to “unfairly demonise men.” I don’t think our culture has even approached the foothills of properly understanding and grappling with male violence and the impact it has on women and girls. The extent to which violence and destructiveness is concentrated in 50% of the human race is staggering and we don’t talk about it even close to enough. That said, i don’t think teaching boys they have “privilege” helps. I think teaching girls about statistics could help. The ones who’ve been abused need to know it’s common. The ones who haven’t been abused yet need to know it’s common. We need to get to grips as a culture with how much so many men hate women. We still collectively have our heads in the sand about it.

Yes, not all men. But if you’re a man and understanding the facts of male violence makes you feel bad then you should deal with that by not being one of those men. Simple.

CarPoor · 07/12/2022 10:49

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 07/12/2022 10:16

As a member of the privileged group,

The problem is that this bit always requires an admission of guilt, culpability. As if being born white in an historically and predominantly white country is a sin in and of itself. Talk to a man like my DH, dragged up by a single mother who used him as an emotional punchbag, in a very poor household. Tell him that because his reaction to this was to step outside the bounds of his family, his social group and to do something different that means he is privileged by mere dint of being white. You will be met with an aggressive tirade of abuse, plain talking and probably a boot up your arse.

Instead of blaming individuals, laying that moral obligation on an individual because they are, or are not something that has been identified as 'bad' we need to tell the sellers of that trite bollocks to come back when they have a suggestion that does not involve replacing one set of hate beliefs with another.

This white, older, woman as the most privileged shite is, like a lot of divisive politics, not for the benefit of anyone who is being harmed by racism, ageism, sexism etc.

And yes. I am fully aware that this will be held up as another of those "MN is so racist and getting worse" posts. Presumably by people who believe that, as a white older woman, I am the very devil!

Your DH sounds like a right knobhead tbh who doesn't understand what privilege means

The fact that he would launch into an tirade of aggression and abuse says all that needs to be said about his male privilege.

BellaAmorosa · 07/12/2022 10:50

And I can see the value of using the word "advantage" instead of "privilege", @OmiOmyand @YetAnotherSpartacus.
More light, less heat.

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