Is feminism unfairly demonising boys/men?

[Axolotlquestions]

I'm seeing a lot of pushback at feminism in 'gender critical' circles because it's being lumped in with critical social justice. That is, the mentality that says all white people carry the guilt of centuries of racism is also applied to the concept of sexism, with all men being blamed for patriarchy. I'm trying to get my head around my position on this.

Could the wise feminist minds of Mumsnet take a look at this and give me your thoughts?
genspect.org/girls-are-better-than-boys/

Stella should really be ashamed of herself for platforming this man. I wonder if she had read the article on “The Malestrom.”

Just checking in to see if some posters are still saying women are somehow to blame for male behaviour.

Just checking in to see if some posters are still saying women are somehow to blame for male behaviour.

Do you mean saying that Stella O’Malley shouldn’t have published this? To be fair, I don’t know that she is exclusively responsible for the blog. I assumed it from the context in the rest of the thread. But whoever chose to promote this fringe MRA type to another audience, I think it’s reasonable to criticise that choice.

I'm seeing a lot of pushback at feminism in 'gender critical' circles because it's being lumped in with critical social justice

I'd be interested in what circles you are running in where people are gender critical but not feminist. And feminist but completely against CSJ theory.

People who reject critical race theory and the like will always ring alarm bells for me. A lot of people don't understand what it means and there's just a knee jerk reaction because people feel criticised.

But you didn't give any thought to the scenario, did you?

No. Because you are a believer no doubt.

Being told to get to fuck for mouthing judgemental stupidity is to be expected, surely

@CarPoor

Boys watch porn, but again they can't help it. Then they watch bad porn but again not their fault. Poor poor men. They learn about rape culture, they worry they might be a rapist because they want to do things with their body and aren't sure how to do this without raping people. Again apparently not something he has control over

Yes, literally what the fuck? Reading that article was a complete mind fuck, the leap from point A to point B was insane.

And sorry to spam this thread but just to reiterate my last post, his weird assertion that all men go through this dark descent into graphic and violent porn and him illustrating it as a natural consequence to seeing girls getting into less trouble at school is just.. Ugh.

I'm not sure what you mean by believer. But by your own admission your husband gets aggressive and abusive, the epitome of a man who throws his weight around to make his opinions heard and seem more valid. So no I have no empathy for him. You are using the same techniques as the article, trying to tap into female empathy to excuse shitty behaviour.

I disagree with this

Yes men are expected to be in control of their behaviour and disciplined. As are women. That's basic adult behaviour. I disagree they are expected to be masculine. I think most women are happy to raise a child with another woman. Men are expected to be supportive and calm but these aren't masculine traits

Everyone having children needs to appreciate the responsibility and financial burden this will entail. I don't know many men who are the sole breadwinners for their family anymore, and I think it would do society good if we stopped teaching men this.

I don't think it's a fine line between respecting differences and seeing them as inferior. Its pretty easy to distinguish different from inferior.

I started reading his blog, and even his definition of shame smacks of male privilege.

He says shame is the ‘conscious awareness’ of having ‘done something wrong or foolish’.

Erm, no, not if you are born female.

Women are shamed simply for being a living being-

eg- women are shamed for having body hair, for going to the toilet, for having an appetite, for having complex emotions and no permasmile, for menstruating, for having opinions, for having muscles, for aging, for the numbers of years they’ve lived increasing, for having veins…. I could go on and on and on.

If only there were a just cause for the shaming of women - we would be living the dream.

Your whole assumption is that women are going to become SAHM.

Everyone needs to take responsibility for their families. This isn't masculine.

I mean, some women are too ashamed to leave the house without putting on make up. They are ashamed of having a normal human face.

This!

The whole thing says more about the author than it does about either other men or feminism.
To the Rules of Misogyny mentioned above, I'd add #1: Women are responsible for what men do.

'resting bitch face'. The phenomenon of bravely not arranging your features to pander to socialisation and the male gaze.

The worst thing of all of this is he seems like quite an uncontroversial figure. He's a successful author, has article on sites such as Psychology Today and Glamour UK so he's not just relegated to the seedy underbelly of the Manosphere.

@waterwitch mansplaining isn't a concept, it's a label for a very specific form of behavior by some/many/whatever men towards women. That said, there are certainly instances for the label being used inappropriately.

@CarPoor

My whole assumption is NOT that women aspire to be a SAHM, however I am uncertain as to the classic feminist aim to never be a SAHM. Doesn't this somehow devalue motherhood - a female only role?

It's thorny.

I just don't think motherhood is not valuable. I think it is incredibly valuable, probably the most valuable thing I have done, and I actually do have a decent career. But would I say my career is more satisfying than being a mother? I'm not sure. And that's what studies show most women think - they voluntarily drop out the rat race at a frightening pace (if they can) so I just sometimes question whether the pursuit of economic glory for women in feminism is serving exactly what most women want.

I don't know of course. I have just become increasingly suspicious of this devaluing of motherhood and (dare I say it, traditional) family - I am not sure who it is serving.

1. This piece isn't gender critical in the slightest. As pp have already pointed out, it's based on all sorts of lazy cliches about girls being naturally meek and good at sitting still, etc. etc.

1. What it does do is provide an excellent example of "trans" as an extension of run of the mill Men's Rights discourse, which is what the first two thirds of the text consist of. As such, I'm not entirely sure if it's sincere or a parody...

Valuing motherhood isn't the same as expecting women to become permanent SAHMs and by extension expecting men to be sole bread winners.

I'm very interested in the maternalism branch of feminism and generally consider the role of raising children heavily undervalued by UK society, but the solution to/opposite of that undervalue is not to assume the answer is more women being SAHMs.

I agree that feminism should not be about telling women they should never be SAHMs, but it isn't. I had a friend like that as a young woman and given that I had children at 21, felt like I didn't "belong" in feminism anymore. It was a sad time and was completely wrong of me and her.

It's also a privileged perspective to be able to consider women working while being mothers are "pursuing economic glory". Lots of women work because they cannot afford to do otherwise. And sometimes women don't work because they can't afford to do otherwise.

I do think having said all that, that it's important to be self reflective of our frame of reference and the values we hold, and how this relates to our view of feminism. While conversations are valid and different view points are to be respected, some opinions are simply not compatible with feminism. Teaching our sons that they should be sole bread winners and expect their female partners to bear their children and stay at home to raise them, without talking about any other options or supporting their partners with work and taking on equal childcare, is not feminist. It's not insidious, but it's not feminist.

Your point 2 - this won't be in support of trans people. MRAs are transphobic as well as misogynistic in general.

People who reject critical race theory and the like will always ring alarm bells for me.

Oh really? Why's that then?

Chivalry is just another way of making out women to be weak and not able to do things for themselves.
and
We should all, men and women, be mindful of those around us who are less able to do things
Are women weaker and less able to do things than men or not?

I don't understand why you are connecting the two? I think the idea that men have to open doors (representation of chivalry) for women is based on the idea that women are weaker and need to be looked after. I didn't say that's my belief.

Which is why the second part stands too. Because we should all be mindful of those around us. Humans are social animals.

I always claim to be a 2nd waver. But actually I'm a pragmatic feminist. I can't lug sacks of coal around all day, but I'm not too weak to carry a box of paper upstairs, along with all the other members of my team, when we get a delivery and the lift is out of order. But everywhere I've worked, the men have been asked to do that and the women not. I am no better at setting up a meeting room and making coffee than the next person, but everywhere i've worked the women have been asked (expected) to do that and not the men. So for the paper, i jump up and grab a box. For the coffee? I find an intern, and i alternate between the male and females, because we can all do that.

etc etc.

But i don't want some guy pushing forward to open a door for me just because I'm a woman. I can open doors unless i have my hands full, and then i appreciate anyone who gives me a hand.

No one is devaluing motherhood. We are questing your assumption that your sons will be the sole breadwinners for their families and that women will become SAHMs. We are questioning how masculinity is important in raising children

I didn't say being a SAHM wasnt valuable.

I think it's important to teach both sexes the value in raising children and the financial cost to both parties. And women should know how giving up their careers will affect their future. They can then make an informed decision on what is best for their families.

Yes, I think most people would agree with that.

I think we are in this ridiculous situation now though, where a woman is struggling and obviously needs help - eg to grab something from the back of a high cupboard, and blokes who could easily reach out an arm and pass it too her, just stand and watch. When quizzed, they say it’s because they don’t want her to think they view her as incapable. It’s actually more humiliating, for the woman, for them to stand there watching how incapable she actually is, in that moment.

I know it is shockingly thick, but many men need a code of behaviour to know when to step in and help and when to stand back.

If it is women saying "we all need to be more aware of the needs of those around us" it is no wonder that a lot of men don't listen. And they are the ones who are barging all over the place in their egocentric lives.

So we need other men to be saying this. As i say though - my version of feminism is pragmatic. There is enough for me to do to be taking care of women around me, so i don't worry if i might be hurting fragile male egos by saying "we all need to care more for those around us" but i also can't spend too much time trying to push the point. I want other men to take that task over.

Tbh, i haven't ever encountered the scenario where i've been struggling and a man has declined to help due to "feminism", except in my earliest army days when i was lucky to have a very good sgt in my troop who stamped on that.

In that scenario, though, if help is not forthcoming and someone (of any sex) is there who could help, I'm more likely to say "hey, buddy, a hand here?" and have the discussion later about not being able to open a door because of full hands doesn't make me weak, and accepting help doesn't make me a bad feminist.