Is feminism unfairly demonising boys/men?

[Axolotlquestions]

I'm seeing a lot of pushback at feminism in 'gender critical' circles because it's being lumped in with critical social justice. That is, the mentality that says all white people carry the guilt of centuries of racism is also applied to the concept of sexism, with all men being blamed for patriarchy. I'm trying to get my head around my position on this.

Could the wise feminist minds of Mumsnet take a look at this and give me your thoughts?
genspect.org/girls-are-better-than-boys/

@namitynamechange I wonder if they shouldn’t bring back separation of the sexes for at least part of the school years.

(not very stealth boast) My son turning 8 coincided in the new school teaching becoming much more focused on sitting down, working silently etc. He had struggled a little in earlier years with staying still and we had talked about running around a lot at playtime to burn of energy etc. The teacher contacted me to let me know that my son had noticed the noise cancelling headphones at the back of the classroom and gone to ask her in the first week if he could wear them during quiet study to help him concentrate/block out the noise of the rest of the class. She said that was in fact what they were there for, but it was the first time a child had actually spotted them and had the initiative to ask to use them himself.
Of course, if he hadn't or was struggling in other ways me/the teacher would have tried to think of ways he could help himself. But the point is, if an 8 year old can identify a problem that's affecting them, think of a solution that will help them without negatively affecting anyone else, and then put that into practice politely then adults can as well. That's part of being an adult. And if neurotypical adults can't, for whatever reason, then further coddling them and telling them nothing is their fault will make things worse (in this case for men) not better. Or you know, they could just blame feminists, watch a lot of porn and join online communities that tell them to castrate themselves.

@Palmfrond I actually think more male teachers would help. But the problem is, while there are male teachers and they usually do very well career wise (more likely to be promoted etc) less men in general want to become teachers than women, especially of younger children. A conversation around that might be helpful, but blaming feminism and women in general is so counterproductive and fixes nothing because its shooting at the wrong problem.

But in those days, instead of an exasperated teacher telling them to sit down, I don't want to have to tell you again, they would probably have been caned.

It’s not ever talked about, but the decline of boys’ performance in school relative to girls matches up in timeline with the abolition of corporal punishment in schools. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suspect it may be related.

To be clear, I have no idea what to do with this suspicion. I don’t want corporal punishment in schools. But I think it’s striking how no one ever seems to suggest this as a possible cause of boys doing less well even though it’s a big shift in school culture that preceded this gap opening up. They pontificate about rote learning or having to sit still (not exactly new) or alternatively about coursework or having to work in groups (not the majority of the curriculum) as potential causes of the achievement gap, but never this.

i think perhaps if it is the cause then that means that boys need to be taught to fear authority, more than girls. And perhaps there are other more humane ways than corporal punishment to accomplish that.

Surprisingly I have little empathy for aggressive men shouting a tirade of abuse.

I see what you men but if (to quote the article)
"How the teacher’s voice goes hard when you or one of the other boys are told to be still"
is so terrible then I can't see how any suggestion that boys benefit from a stricter hand wouldn't be seen as Proof Positive that women/girls have it far far easier etc etc. I think it would be different if it came from men. And some men are saying it, but often with a side order of "this is what the feminisation of the world is doing". So women are simultaneously guilty of terrifying boys with their hard voices (not even shouting!!!), and also of being too soft. That's why men need to think of solutions to problems like this themselves - its highly likely that those might be better solutions having been boys themselves. So long as it doesn't mean putting women back in the kitchen so they have less competition.
I would have no problem centring men on this issue btw. And one thing I don't like is that some (and it is only a minority) of voices get weird about men writing about boys issues even when they aren't blaming women.

The teacher who told him to sit still and listen wasn't doing it because she was an evil feminist who just hates boys she was doing her job - educating him.

Given unlimited time and resources, I would take those children aside give them extra tasks, or something more active, but given there is only one of me, I tend to give abrupt instructions to disruptive children, and focus on those who are listening (who are often, yes, mostly, but not all, girls). It isn't fair or especially healthy to give all the attention to those who are acting up.

I mean "feminist argues that boys should be beaten in schools but not girls" would kick up quite the controversy (I know you weren't recommending that).

I have actually thought that, for the young people (men in particular) who experience a failure to launch and end up as NEETS sitting in their parents house in their teens/early twenties, some sort of National Service/ reserve army type training option could be beneficial in at least giving their lives purpose, something to go on their CV, routine etc. But again - there is no way that could be implemented without kickstarting a debate on how easy women have it.

I mean "feminist argues that boys should be beaten in schools but not girls" would kick up quite the controversy (I know you weren't recommending that).

I know, MRAs would have a feeding frenzy. It’s not just suggesting there are psychological differences between human males and females they have a problem with, they’re all over that. They get the rage when those differences are construed to have any implication other than “women are inferior and must serve and obey men.”

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist If you want to start a conversation about the fact "working class scum" is considered an acceptable group to discriminate against I would love to chip in. You saw it after the Steven Lawrence killing - the murderers were (completely rightly) condemned, but the racist uneducated hooligan narrative that then dominated for years distracted attention from the fact that the police in that instance were also incredibly racist. I think that was intentional. Likewise, the fact that the press turned a blind eye to the abuse of working class girls, and tried to scape-goat fathers who complained as racist/uneducated etc. There is LOADS I could say. But I feel like its more related to classism than feminism (though I can see why Tallulah Fortescue-moneybags writing for the Guardian that he has so much more privilege than her just because he's male would rankle)

FWIW, I think boys largely need more activity. PE first thing, lots of fresh air and exercise. I don't think caning them is going to help all that much. 😆

wrt class, I got the sense the article in the OP is from the US? Where class is a whole different kettle of fish, as I understand it.

I don't agree that men and boys need to be taught not to barge women out of the way. Chivalry is just another way of making out women to be weak and not able to do things for themselves.

Although I don’t think we want to go back to women being seen as incapable, we are weaker and less aggressive than men, it’s the truth, and men need to learn to manage that. Instead we have all these computer games and action movies with women taking on men and winning. Surely there is a way of mitigating the biological male urge and advantage to physically dominate others, which is tailored to them, without needing it to hinge on notions of female inferiority?

Men and boys shouldn't be barging anyone out of the way.

In my experience they are, more and more. Huge teenage boys, with no self awareness, steaming down the street and probably enjoying this new-found male power to part the waves.

We should all, men and women, be mindful of those around us who are less able to do things and not push them over in our rush to get on with our important lives etc etc.

Yes, this is how we are all currently taught, ‘we should all’, it seems to be getting through to the girls, but not the boys, right now. So the sex which really needs to absorb that message, for the good of society, and women in particular, isn’t.

Perhaps it’s the contradiction in what you said:

Chivalry is just another way of making out women to be weak and not able to do things for themselves.

and

We should all, men and women, be mindful of those around us who are less able to do things

Are women weaker and less able to do things than men or not?

Agree, I think girls need it too of course. Of course, the schools in the most deprived areas are often the ones with the least outside space/that have sold of their playing fields.

They get the rage when those differences are construed to have any implication other than “women are inferior and must serve and obey men.”

Don't those that are destined to be on a higher rung of the ladder first need to learn self control and to defer to a higher authority than themselves? Boys are children, not adults. Surely they should learn to defer to authority, if they support an authoritarian structure?
You can't be both anti authoritarian and also in favour of patriarchy. It makes no sense.
Unless MRA's have no interest in constructing a better society and are only interested in demolishing the one we have.

With regards to teenage boys barging people out of the way

I have a disability which means I have to be extra careful to not bang into/get banged into because it causes a lot of pain. It's invisible so people aren't extra careful around me because of cues like crutches or a cane (although let's face is ableism is as rife as any other ism). Which means I tend to be very aware of who might bang into me.

I find men of all ages barge into me except much older men generally, and I think that's because generally speaking they are becoming more frail and need to be more careful themselves

I would not say teenage boys are any worse. In fact I have slightly more sympathy for them if they are in the growth spurt age because I remember my sister having a sudden massive growth spurt and becoming incredible clumsy for a few months because she couldn't function in her own body carefully enough

But generally men barging into you is as likely to be a middle aged man on his mobile, on his way to his important job who just doesn't see women as it is to be a teenage boy. but that's just my experience, I appreciate others may vary

Are women weaker and less able to do things than men or not?

what things?

define ‘weaker’

i think you need to be pretty damn careful with statements like this

Interestingly this man and many NEETs openly admit a problematic relationship with porn. Yet feminists who oppose porn because they recognise its damaging effects on both sexes are vilified, mostly by men. Men don't want to help each other.

With regards to 'too much energy' and struggling to sit still how much of that is socialisation though?

My mum is a prime example of this. When my nephew struggles to sit still, or play by himself nicely, or listen properly I get told 'well that's what boys do', 'he's a proper little boy' etc etc

She seems to forget I had the same issues and she would just yell at me and smack me and tell me that I was a bad girl. Because girls don't do that. It was never 'well that's what girls do' or 'well that's what toddlers/children do'

Do girls sit down and concentrate better by the time they go to school, or have they already been told off more for their behaviour? We are told they mature sooner but is it because they have spent the first 3-4 years of their lives with greater expectations and that why they seem more mature

I just feel like maybe we think society needs to come up with different ways to treat boys to get them to behave better, because they need more than girls, when actually we still aren't treating them like girls yet (not quite the right wording but I hope it makes sense) so they don't necessarily need more just the same

I think the article is quite clever actually because it taps into this idea of "boys will be boys" and then suggests that they are being penalised for that. Here on the feminism board, we're all rolling our eyes at the ridiculousness, lack of context etc, but I can easily see how this sort of thing can be seen as an "aha" moment for a lot of people.

in real life, it's just not true. Boys get loads of support at school and certainly at junior school, there's an astonishingly high tolerance for behaviour that I think should be stamped out - I've lost count of the girls who are asked to sit with the boys to keep them calm or who have been told "he didn't mean it" when they are touched/hit inappropriately or teased because their panties are showing at PE. Our junior school doesn't even split girls and boys toilets in year 5 and 6... so the girls just have to suck it up.

But the article takes one tiny thing some people can buy into and manages to turn that in a much bigger thing.

I was hoping @Brefugee would come along and clarify.

In my own experience, I am less capable of lifting and levering heavy objects, reaching high shelves without a stool, than men. Also, I find that trying to lift and handle things that are of a weight and size suited to male averages, I can actually get injured. For a long time I have struggled as a capable feminist and ended up with joint pain.

I know that Invisible Women exposed how women are disadvantaged by the male-as-default bias in the world, and I agree, but then there is something practical like a 20 kilo bag of cat litter is cheaper, but there’s no way I am going to carry that fucking thing upstairs any more.

The patriarchy loves to trot out the same old tropes about how much feminism harms men/boys, but happily chooses to ignore the benefits they have gained from it. My son is 20 years old and works as an early years childcare practitioner for children with SEN. This is a life long dream for him and an career option that would just not have been open to him 30 years ago.

Men have woken up and realised that they have to follow womens lead when it comes to discussing MH, as it is quite literally killing them. Theyve also opened up dialog about men suffering from domestic abuse, speaking up and forming support groups. Weve started to see large campaigns around mens health issues that are similar to womens campaigns like Tickled pink.

My point is this. Men who follow feminist principles live a happier, healthier and more well rounded life. Women who live a life ruled by a patriachal system are oppressed, abused, enslaved and murdered, yet somehow society still wants to believe its feminism that is harmful and evil.

The fact the author themselves doesn't even notice the girls who get told off in class, who struggle to sit still. These girls exist in every class. It's not just boys who get told off, who are loud and silly.

I think more than that the boys behaviour is often excused as boys being boys, while girls get disciplined earlier. Boys are taught as per his article that they aren't responsible for their behaviour, while girls are taught to be obedient and have empathy for the disruptive boys, aggressive men.

I have thought a lot about what you are saying, because I have a daughter who won’t sit still and she would get told off for rocking in her chair at school, stuff like that, and at home my mother is horrified that I let her do kick-ups with a football whilst she’s watching TV.

But I think there is a different energy boys have - particularly when the beginning of puberty hits, which I think is happening earlier too these days. I don’t think it is all socialisation.

I think it is aggression.