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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nhs badge issue pronouns

196 replies

goldfishthecracker · 06/12/2022 23:28

Started a new job today and got my ID badge. I had to put my preferred pronouns on the form for my badge. It wasn't an option for me not to pick it.

I gave it back without picking one and she handed it back to me saying she wouldn't give me a badge without me choosing them and I need my badge to work. She accused me of being transphobic when I said I didn't want to put them on display and i queried why I had to do it.

Now I have an official badge that I have to wear on display for patients and other health care professionals to see who I am with my pronouns very clearly displayed.

I'd share a photo but it has all my ID on it!

Can I raise this as an issue with my union? I don't want my pronouns to be on display, i see no need for it at all. Apparently they're moving towards all staff needing to display their pronouns on their badge. All previous staff are being asked to hand in their old badges and get a new one with their pronouns on it

Is it me?

OP posts:
Cailin66 · 07/12/2022 10:14

SiobhanSharpe · 07/12/2022 00:17

Also 'pronouns are rohypnol'
fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

That's a great article. But I don't get why the post was taken down and the poster banned for 7 days. Do you know the reason for that decision.

Cailin66 · 07/12/2022 10:19

screamingbanshees · 06/12/2022 23:57

You identify as a woman so presumably you prefer she/her when people refer to you. I don't understand what the problem is.

I don't identify as a woman I am one. I don't want other people to be policing my speech including pronouns. If I don't want to have pronouns on my work badge. I don't want you to think that just because it is not a problem for you so it should be the same for me, it's not the same for me, it is a problem for me. My choice. And I'd like my choice respected.

Vinvertebrate · 07/12/2022 10:25

Yes, plenty of people buy into this so extensively that they genuinely do believe that they can actually change sex

Including MP’s - see David Lammy’s cervix. Fuckwit.

Georgeskitchen · 07/12/2022 10:29

Good to hear the NHS have their priorities right. Sod the massive waiting lists, staff under pressure running around like headless chickens, as long as the pronouns are correct what else matters 😡😡

OldCrone · 07/12/2022 10:34

Who is supposed to benefit from NHS staff wearing pronoun badges?

Is it for the benefit of the patients? Has it been shown to be beneficial to patients? If not, why is it being done?

thedankness · 07/12/2022 10:46

I think you made a mistake by capitulating - I would have repeatedly refused to state my pronouns. I would say I don't believe in gender identity ideology.

The NHS employed you, needs you and could not have fired you based on refusal to state your pronouns (see Forstater). Ultimately the people responsible for issuing you with a badge do not hold much responsibility beyond that and if they're not giving you a badge they're not doing their job. I think you would have won the stand-off. (I'm not saying this to make you feel bad btw, more to highlight that sometimes we have more power than we realise and when the power dynamic is more in our favour we should try to capitalise on it).

Now that you have the badge I would cover the pronouns with stickers and make a formal complaint. I also don't think you should lie about your reasons for not wanting to state your pronouns. You could say it makes you uncomfortable if it does, but you don't need to pretend to go along with gender identity ideology by saying you're "not ready to share your pronouns" or similar.

SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · 07/12/2022 10:46

Another issue is that by declaring pronouns, and thereby being compelled to buy into the idea that you can demand people use certain pronouns for you, you are also being forced to provide evidence for anyone wishing to gain a GRC, as part of that evidence is to prove that you have been 'living as a woman'

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 07/12/2022 11:17

Don’t wish to derail the thread, but I still believe Christian names are completely inappropriate for the doctor patient relationship

I agree @Babdoc - I think doctors should always introduce themselves with their title (especially when it’s not at all obvious in the dress code, eg an environment where everyone wearing scrubs).

In paediatrics some doctors go with ‘Dr Firstname’ for the patients which is a good, patient-appropriate compromise for children.

I’ve also come across doctors with difficult to pronounce surnames who use a modified/simplified form or use their firstname if it sounds a bit surname-y (but still with the ‘Doctor’ title) so with a bit of thought it’s definitely possible to be both professional and patient-friendly (eg perhaps Dr Firstname works for other specific patient groups with additional vulnerabilities).

My dear old elderly dad passed away after a 6 week period in hospital last year and all the staff took great care to address him by Doctor Surname throughout his stay, which was a surprisingly beautiful and emotional thing for me to witness (Dad retired from an almost 4 decades long NHS psychiatry career 20 years ago but had kept up his professional registration).
Even typing that now is making my eyes a bit wet.
Hospital staff calling my dad ‘doctor’ again signalled their respect for his education and his many years of NHS service and meant he never felt patronised (even though lots has changed since his time training/working in physical medicine).
Having multiple doctors and other HCPs around him who clearly understood the significance of the doctor title meant that he in turn could put his trust in the much younger generation of doctors who were in charge of his care (like many elderly, retired docs, dad could sometimes be a rather challenging patient!)

One of our local secondary schools recently had a change of leadership and the new head came in and reverted all the weird new-fangled titles (eg ‘Assistant Director of KS4 Learning’) back to the sorts of things parents clearly understood from their own school years (eg ‘Head of Lower School’).
By all reports it’s been a fantastic move and has really improved home-school communications and parents are better able to support school rules if they know who in the school hierarchy is applying them.

Professional expertise is incredibly important to a functioning society and hierarchies in professional institutions exist for a reason.

We seem to have imported a load of HR fashions that have originated in silicone valley and some of them just don’t work at all in a health/education/legal professional environment.

Ndd135632 · 07/12/2022 12:09

@screamingbanshees Trans people are not ignorant - they understand that any medical treatment or dosage based on sex is given according to their biological sex at birth.

Gender ideology believes that sex is ‘assigned at birth’. I would say that is ignorant given that sex is determined at conception and observed in the womb even before birth wouldn’t you?

RosesAndHellebores · 07/12/2022 12:13

@DaughterOfPsychiatrist I completely agree with you, providing all those employed within the NHS address the patients with their titles too. I will not have a consultant refer to me by my first name whilst introducing themselves by title. That extends to their trainees who refer to the consultant by title in my presence whilst using my first name. Similarly it should also apply to nurses. I have no idea why they think they may use my first name whilst referring to the Dr by title.

It is an equality issue. No doctor is more important than any other human and the entire culture should respect every stakeholder equally. Presently they do not. I refuse to call my GP Dr Jones when he assumes he may use my first name. When I called him out he told me he forgot my surname between his office and reception. He was aghast when I asked if he had forgotten his first name as well because if thought he could use mine whilst inviting me to use his surname his behaviour was reductive.

Spidey66 · 07/12/2022 12:16

I work for the NHS. We got new badges a few weeks ago, it just says Hello my name is XXXX and your job title, nothing about pronouns and it wasn't brought up as an option. It's not an NHS wide initiative.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/12/2022 12:18

Gender ideology believes that sex is ‘assigned at birth’. I would say that is ignorant given that sex is determined at conception and observed in the womb even before birth wouldn’t you?

It's very ignorant. In fact, the only people 'assigned at birth' are the tiny number of people with ambiguous DSDs who might initially be incorrectly categorised - this is rare in the 21st century in developed countries. But if they are missassigned at birth, then for them, and them only, that assignation is null and void except as data in their medical histories. What matters for them, as for the rest of us, is their actual sex at birth.
They're the only people who should have the sex on their birth certificates changed, to correct the error.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/12/2022 12:21

Spidey66 · 07/12/2022 12:16

I work for the NHS. We got new badges a few weeks ago, it just says Hello my name is XXXX and your job title, nothing about pronouns and it wasn't brought up as an option. It's not an NHS wide initiative.

Good! The information the patient needs, clearly stated.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/12/2022 12:25

I completely agree with you, providing all those employed within the NHS address the patients with their titles too.

Or rather, they should address their patients as the patient wishes. Some GPs /hospitals manage this, some don't.

rippleraspberry · 07/12/2022 12:30

Ndd135632 · 07/12/2022 09:15

@rippleraspberry I didn’t say they ‘don’t have a grip on reality’. You said that!

I said - I believe in reality.

😅Oh come off it.

You believe in reality, therefore what do you think people with a different outlook on gender identiy believe in?

You're obviously implying that they are not quite connected to reality.

It's just unpleasant and patronising - both sides of this debate need to be a bit more respectful and listen a bit more.

Willowswood · 07/12/2022 12:46

Spidey66 · 07/12/2022 12:16

I work for the NHS. We got new badges a few weeks ago, it just says Hello my name is XXXX and your job title, nothing about pronouns and it wasn't brought up as an option. It's not an NHS wide initiative.

I work for NHS in Wales. I've just had a new badge and nothing about pronouns on it. I wouldn't wear it if it did. And I definitely don't wouldn't tell them my pronouns in the first place. It's obvious what my pronouns are.

flyingbuttress43 · 07/12/2022 13:00

It's all part of the mission creep isn't it? The silent and sinister capture of our institutions, charities, Government, business etc. by the wilder shores of the trans movement. Except this mission creep has turned into more of a gallop. The speed with which this ideology has accelerated over the last decade is mind boggling.

There are signs that the tide is beginning to turn thank goodness. As the saying goes: you can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

Ndd135632 · 07/12/2022 13:01

@rippleraspberry you know what rippleraspberry. Our NHS is on its knees. We have a Strep A issue at the moment with our kids. People are waiting hours for help. And the OP comes on here saying that she is being called ‘transphobic’ for not wanting to have a brand new name badge being paid for by our money with pronouns on it. You don’t think that is unpleasant?

All I said was I believe in reality. If you really think saying that is ‘unpleasant and patronising’ and yet people trying to save lives and being called ‘transphobic’ and cajoled into doing something they don’t believe in then so be it.

Ndd135632 · 07/12/2022 13:04

I missed an important word @rippleraspberry

All I said was I believe in reality. If you really think saying that is ‘unpleasant and patronising’ and yet people trying to save lives and being called ‘transphobic’ and cajoled into doing something they don’t believe in is ‘respectful’ then so be it.

PaterPower · 07/12/2022 13:10

Moreover I would be concerned if I was being cared for by someone who refers to the trans community in these ways. They are constantly at risk of hate crime from people with such views

…and yet, (thankfully but completely unsurprisingly for anyone who’s not swallowed the “most vulnerable” BS), each year when the names of actual women murdered are read out in the HoC, there’s not a Trans woman amongst them.

When “hate crime” equals misgendering, it makes a mockery of what that term should mean. VAWG is a threat to life and a stain on our society. Hurty feelz are not.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 07/12/2022 13:14

screamingbanshees · 06/12/2022 23:57

You identify as a woman so presumably you prefer she/her when people refer to you. I don't understand what the problem is.

Oh the happy triteness of this. Not sure why I am surprised to see such claptrap on a thread like this.

One more time for the deliberately hard of understanding: Like many other women I do not identify as a woman, I am a woman. And pronouns are outwith my control as they are only ever used in my absence. Call me what you will!

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 07/12/2022 13:19

I caught one of my trainees in the anaesthetic room introducing herself to an elderly patient with “Hi, I’m Katie, I’m one of the team, I’ll be putting you to sleep”
I took her aside later, and asked her to imagine she was a frightened old lady

I'm not a frightened old lady but an anaesthetist telling me they were going to put me to sleep would be a definite 'choose your words more carefully next time' moment.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/12/2022 13:29

Some euphemisms really should be binned, that's another of them. It scares and confuses kids, and isn't accurate applied to animals. It should be a phrase an anaesthetist could use literally, but isn't.

Ndd135632 · 07/12/2022 13:36

I do find it rather odd that somebody goes into their place of work and gets called transphobic and yet it is those who don’t believe in gender ideology that have to ‘be more respectful and listen more’.

Gender realists don’t go round insulting people in the workplace.

DaughterOfPsychiatrist · 07/12/2022 13:40

RosesAndHellebores · 07/12/2022 12:13

@DaughterOfPsychiatrist I completely agree with you, providing all those employed within the NHS address the patients with their titles too. I will not have a consultant refer to me by my first name whilst introducing themselves by title. That extends to their trainees who refer to the consultant by title in my presence whilst using my first name. Similarly it should also apply to nurses. I have no idea why they think they may use my first name whilst referring to the Dr by title.

It is an equality issue. No doctor is more important than any other human and the entire culture should respect every stakeholder equally. Presently they do not. I refuse to call my GP Dr Jones when he assumes he may use my first name. When I called him out he told me he forgot my surname between his office and reception. He was aghast when I asked if he had forgotten his first name as well because if thought he could use mine whilst inviting me to use his surname his behaviour was reductive.

I mostly agree. In the hierarchy of humans doctors are not some sort of extra special entity worthy of worship, but in their professional environment their title has more significance that mine (Ms) does.

That doesn’t mean that doctors should default to patient’s first name though (it’s a jarring mismatch in etiquette for starters)!

Using a patient’s title is somewhat context specific as a GP can get through a 5-10 min slot politely and respectfully without needing to use a name at all (nor the patient needing to use the doctor’s name/title during the appointment) but an outpatient procedure or an overnight stay should definitely have a ‘would you prefer I call you Title Surname or something else?’ conversation.
No need to remember with multiple inpatients as it can go on the wall above/beside the bed.

I personally like the whiteboard signs that have patient name, consultant name, nurse-for-the-shift name because then everything is clear and easily glanced at in the moment (although I realise that gives the nurses have an extra job of updating the sign each shift so I don’t hold it against them when they forget!)

Adding pronouns as well is an unnecessary additional layer of information and actually decreases understanding for patients with literacy difficulties or English as a second language, as well as creating the potential for distrust/doubt/hostility/awkward situations (when someone accidentally intuitively reverts to sex based pronouns).

Pronoun displays are of no real use to anyone, including transgender people (who could use titles to indicate similar information).

The display of ’Personal Pronouns’ with a/slash, whatever the original intent, has become symbolic of a controversial belief system.

Most English speaking people are well aware that ‘She’ ‘Her’ ‘Hers’ ‘Herself’ are a set (even if they can’t identify them as subject/object/possessive/reflective) and we generally don’t mind those with ESL cocking it up a bit, letting wrong-forms pass without comment (unless it’s in a language lesson).

So what is the reason for the slash to appear on a badge or in an email signature?

The only practical explanation that I can come up with is that including the slash creates the possibility of a single person with multiple preferred pronouns eg she/they (which should really be she/them if we are using the slash to indicate subject/object consistently) or to explain unfamiliar neopronouns eg xir/xim (in which case it should be the whole set xe/xir/xem/xier/xierself, example found via Google)!

Personally, I hate the current pronoun dance, which I see a top-down imposition of someone else’s belief system (as in the OP if this thread) but I have no issue whatsoever with the addition of the Mx title to the existing Ms/Miss/Mrs/Mr selection.

That one feels like more of a grass roots request for a simple adaption to an existing system, as Ms was back in it’s early days.