Women's rights general conversations

[Kucingsparkles]

This is an experimental thread, all input much appreciated!

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

Right, bring on the flames or flowers! <cowers>

Oops, wrong thread.

Sounds painful.

It was Jo Swinson who peaked me back then, I thought my brain was going to explode.

Well, the main thing the FWS ruling has clarified is that the law is a muddled mess, which is what happens when "language evolves..." Infuriating, and yet somehow not surprising.

I'm getting Dylan vibes now. Excellent work by Nora Ephron RIP.

Oh dear, it's a blow for Scotland, as a judge has ruled that men are now allowed to sit on boards, in women's roles:

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/13/trans-women-can-take-seats-on-public-boards-set-aside-for-women-scottish-judge-rules

Scotland’s highest court has ruled that transgender women should be included in legislation aimed at improving gender balance on public boards. The court of session found that Scottish government guidance that extends the definition of “woman” to transgender women with a gender recognition certificate (GRC) is lawful.

Nora Ephron always struck me as a GBOL. Smart, and funny too.

But Jeez, Reading the piece below in that link: say a man cannot be a mother or a lesbian in Norway, and you're looking at a 3 year stretch? WTAF?

I suppose the only good thing is, like the increasingly untenable position of the Scottish government, these clashes will somehow bring matters to a head, and force some changes?

I would like to ask you all: What should a politician say when asked “what is a woman”? Is there an answer acceptable to all? Or is it impossible to avoid offending one side or another? I know it’s a question asked to put them on the spot and/or trip them up, so if I were a politician I’d want an answer ready to go.

Men and non men, essentially. Same old, same old.

Someone with XX chromosomes, Mavis?

I think I might throw myself to the wolves, Mavis and say a woman is someone who is born female. And then my career would be over.

I think I might throw myself to the wolves, Mavis and say a woman is someone who is born female. And then my career would be over.

I know! Which is why I wondered if there is any answer that would satisfy everyone.

There is no answer to satisfy all. That’s the issue, that’s always been the issue - if you don’t agreed TWAW then you’re a transphobic bigot. Men can’t be women so it’s not possible to compromise.

I assume TRSOH will be celebrating wildly? The law has confirmed that feelings override reality.

A poster there said several things along the lines of: 'I bet you wouldn't tell Jan Morris she wasn't a woman'.

Various people used to pop into threads here to use that as a gotcha, "it's all very well wanting female only spaces, but would you really expect the saintly JAN MORRIS to use a men's toilet?" They practically needed smelling salts and a fainting couch when I said that in the absence of any third space, I would.

Why on earth wouldn't someone be honest with Jan Morris? - hardly the epitome of 'most vulnerable' who you'd feel mean upsetting.

Adele Anderson was (and to some extent, is) my test. I would not want to upset her, but if my choice is between upsetting her and endorsing policies that allow abuser to identify as female and occupy female spaces, I know where I stand.

With you on Adele Anderson.

Grey's is an interesting one. I've recently done a rewatch of the whole thing. There are various trans storylines scattered through it - all sympathetic, but with slightly different takes.

The first was about 15 years ago - a transwoman in for the final stages of feminisation surgery, discovers cancer, has to choose between treatment and remaining on hormones. But it also spends quite a bit of sympathetic story time on her wife's struggle with her husband becoming a woman.

Next, about 10 years ago - a late teens or early 20s transman with father who refuses to accept his daughter's transition, and an impassioned speech (complete with the 'it's this or dead' argument) from the transman's partner.

About 5 years ago, one of the residents reveals in passing that he's trans, it is never mentioned again.

Last year, very early in the season there's a bit of a hooha about a 4 year old boy liking to wear a sparkly Elsa cloak and sometimea a tutu. His mother agonises through the first part of the season about what does it mean and should they do something? Then it all goes very quiet. For weeks. Then after a brief chat with one of the other doctors (who has a non-binary partner) there's a rushed 'maybe we don't need to choose yet' scene and that whole family of main characters is bundled off to Germany, probably never to be seen again.

Why on earth wouldn't someone be honest with Jan Morris?

From the little I know, I'd say fear of being punched is a strong motivation.

Interestingly☆, at around the same time as the last of the Grey's storylines mentioned above, the terrible Sex and the City reboot☆☆ had similar storyline, with a young teen and a mother who felt something must be done. In her case the advice from the Gay Friend was 'She's 14! She doesn't know what she wants! We'll deal with it in the future if there something to deal with.'

So enthusiastic, unquestioning affirmation may have had its day in the world of trashy telly.

☆ Values of interest may vary.

☆☆ Awful. Don't watch it.

There was a similar plot in ER, around 2000ish I believe, where a mother wouldn’t accept her young trans son/daughter and cut off all of his/her hair. There was another episode where a woman came in and they found out she had testicular cancer.

IReallyLikeCrows

Please don't, even though it would be brave.

Look up Chris Packham and the crow puzzle. It's great.

I am enjoying the thread, but I am struggling because I don't know what this 'old place' was/is, or the story behind people leaving.
(Though I can guess that last bit.)

The short form is that a group of us used to post on another forum, small and fairly obscure. It was an off-shoot of the now defunct Guardian Talk forum. Anyway, many of us knew one another on both forums for many years, friendships were made, marriages happened, meet-ups were held. All was fine for ages, but then a slow and steady rot set in. Feminism, especially GC, became increasingly frowned upon and we who wished to discuss it were corralled into one thread. After a while, even that was unacceptable to the site owner and, basically, we were kicked out.

I should add that being corralled for years is why a 'general conversations' thread was set up here, because that's what we got used to, though it does actually work pretty well here.