Girl Got A New Haircut. Father Shocked By The Things Strangers Now Say To Her.

[Onnabugeisha]

From US HuffPost

My Daughter Got A New Haircut. I'm Shocked By The Things Strangers Now Say To Her.

"Our 12-year-old daughter would like to pee without being harassed. Lately, she can’t seem to escape it."

Article: www.huffpost.com/entry/daughter-short-haircut-harassment_n_6384dd5ae4b06ef4a546c8a5?utm_campaign=share_email&ncid=other_email_o63gt2jcad4

Nope. You replied to

"The issue here is that TRAs have worked so very effectively to make gender stereotypes the norm again."

With:

"Not the case per academic research on the subject:"

We're discussing gender stereotyping. In this case, short hair. My point is that gender ideology utterly relies on gender stereotyping to exist. It cant operate without it. I invited you to come up with any premise for a man to claim he's a woman.

You can't do it without using stereotypes. You didn't even attempt it.

It is transactivists and their commitment to enforcing gender stereotypes which leads to short hair = male.

Not gender critical women.

The blame lies with transactivism. Which is, of course, why it is challenged on here.

You might take comfort from understanding that if gender critical viewpoints prevail, people will be far more confident that sex segregation means just that and hair and clothes will be totally irrelevant to which one you use.

So, presumably because you think confronting masculine [male] seeming children

This nonsense thread is founded upon the idea that girls with short hair appear male. They don't. At least to people with eyes who haven't had their brains eaten entirely by trans bullshit. Why in all the hells would anyone who hasn't had their brain eaten by genderism (or perhaps some other kind of patriarchal religion that has conservative gender roles) assume a short haired young girl is male? Short haired girls look just as female as long haired girls. And all the "transgirls" (i.e. males) I've ever seen had long hair.

Hair length is a gender signifier (at least in the e backward narrow-minded stereotype-addled world of genderists.) Hair length is not a sexually dimorphic feature. How is it even possible that you don't understand this? This thread is astonishing.

The only thing that has changed is the volume of girls with short hair - practically negligible now, it wasn't that uncommon when I was a lass.

This 80s and 90 it wasn't uncommon at all.

Now my DC at secondary all the girls have long hair unless they decide they are trans, non binary or lesbians - it's like they've been taught that hair length and sexuality/gender are linked.

So, presumably because you think confronting masculine seeming children in the women’s toilets is the right thing to do, is this something you have done or would do?

Yes. I would ask if they were in the right space for them if I honestly thought that this was a teenaged boy.

As usual, it is the absolutist and polarised view of the OP that is coming through here. Not one of a reasonable person.

OF COURSE if a person looks like a teenaged boy, a person may mention it is the women's toilet. What world do we live in that women - mother's of teenager and children included, cannot mention to someone that they might be in the wrong toilet thinking it is an honest error?

Should these women 'confront' in an aggressive way? No. Should they make an argument with a teenager about it? No, unless there was need to, in that the woman witnessed something that was inappropriate.

But the constant framing of women asking questions that are important to safeguarding their spaces for all females as being 'confrontations' and 'aggressive' is a well known silencing tactic.

Yes. It's nonsense.

It is transactivism which has decided a short haired girl is probably a boy, despite everyone understanding it is not a sex signifier of any kind.

Poor Judi Dench, Sharon Stone, Halle Berry and Audrey Hepburn.

The op is trying to stop men being challenged in women's spaces and using girl children as a woefully transparent tool.

To be fair, they probably don't realise they're just the latest in a tediously ever ending line of TRAs who come one here weekly to say exactly the same.

Which is worse:

• girl gets asked if she's in the right toilet

-girl gets molested by Katie Dolatowski because women have been told they shouldn't ever challenge anyone in the toilets

I will continue to (politely and non-confrontationally) ask anyone I think might be in the wrong place.

A 'research' article.

"As one of the few explicitly gender-separated spaces, the toilet has become a prominent site of conflict and a focal point for ‘gender-critical’ feminism. In this article we draw upon an AHRC-funded project, Around the Toilet, to reflect upon and critique trans-exclusionary and trans-hostile narratives of toilet spaces. Such narratives include ciscentric, heteronormative and gender essentialist positions within toilet research and activism which, for example, equate certain actions and bodily functions (such as menstruation) to a particular gender, decry the need for all-gender toilets, and cast suspicion upon the intentions of trans women in public toilet spaces. These include explicitly transmisogynist discourses perpetuated largely by those calling themselves ‘gender-critical’ feminists, but also extend to national media, right-wing populist discourses and beyond. We use Around the Toilet data to argue that access to safe and comfortable toilets plays a fundamental role in making trans lives possible. Furthermore, we contend that – whether naive, ignorant or explicitly transphobic – trans-exclusionary positions do little to improve toilet access for the majority, instead putting trans people, and others with visible markers of gender difference, at a greater risk of violence, and participating in the dangerous homogenisation of womanhood."

If I am reading this correctly, this was never a 'research' article to search neutrally for an open hypothesis. This 'study' had a biased viewpoint that it was seeking confirmation for.

Has the definition of research that is credible changed over the past decades?

Why have you posted it? What is it that you trying to prove with it?

Not only that, but this was a reaction to an article in 2018, and this article was released in 2020.

Do you agree OP that by now, at the end of 2022, males absolutely have no way to have avoided the news that their presence in female single sex spaces may cause distress to female people of all ages?

Do you think any male that continues to use a female single sex space, of which a toilet it one, does so knowing that they might cause a female using that space distress, and therefore does so deliberately?

How respectful is that?

How respectful is it that a male would continue to use a female single sex space knowing that it causes a female distress?

To be fair, they probably don't realise they're just the latest in a tediously ever ending line of TRAs who come one here weekly to say exactly the same.

I believe that this poster knows exactly that they are part of a constant dribble of extreme trans rights activists to do this on this board. I have no illusions that they are not aware of this.

When I was bald from chemo, wearing a woolly hat & baggy layers cos I was freezing, & looking a bit like a potato with no eyebrows or eyelashes, I was challenged by a cleaner who saw me heading for the ladies loos.

He said “Excuse me sir, it’s this way”.

i did a double take & laughed & he did the same & apologises. It’s really obvious I’m female from my voice (even though it’s relatively deep) & movements.

No harm was done, I didn’t feel a blow to my “gender identity” or attack on my very existence.

I'm just glad people are on the lookout to defend women’s spaces: good men stay out so bad men stand out.

This was nearly 10 years ago now. I wonder if he’d have the courage to query it now.

Yes

You really cannot say this loud enough can you.

HEY WIMS! SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT MALES IGNORING YOUR BOUNDARIES AND YOUR DAUGHTER'S BOUNDARIES BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE UPSET BY IT SO DON'T CHALLENGE ANYONE! EVER!

No thanks Onnabugeisha.

If I see even a teenaged male, I will politely enquire if they are in the wrong toilet.

Even teenaged males need to know and understand that there are boundaries. As a parent of a teenager, I know this very well.

You telling me or any other woman that we should not even ask a male child if they are in the wrong toilet for their sex is just you telling me that there is a group of children and young people who cannot cope with any adverse situation of a stranger politely querying them.

As a parent of a teen with significant mental health issues, if my teen cannot handle a woman asking them a question about whether they are in the female toilet when they should be in the males toilet, I would be asking myself how they are going to cope in life.

I would also be arming them with polite things to assure that woman asking that my teen was in the toilet set up for their sex, without my teen taking offence.

I don't think that I would be adding to my teen's significant mental health issues by trying to tell them that the person asking is doing so out of hate and phobia.

Why would you do that? Who benefits in the end from women SHUTTING THE FUCK UP as you demand? Exactly who benefits. All of the people who benefit. Not just those you wish to distract us with.

And just for the record, all the trans identifying teenagers I know use the toilets for their sex, not their gender. Each and every one of them.

Yes, children should be left alone, and my presumption that it’s often GC activists policing womens’ toilets is a valid one based on probability and supported by peer reviewed, published research articles.

You have presented nothing of the sort. Not only that, you seem to lack the critical ability to understand the UK population. I know very few women who call themselves 'feminists'. Yet, I do not know one woman who would not feel very uncomfortable with a male in the female single sex space they expected to be just females.

I am not sure how much more you can resort too using your polarised dichotomy which clearly shows just how much you seem to lack any balanced or nuanced thoughts around this issue. You continue to double down with the polarisation and that absolutist language you use that lacks any resemblance of reality.

Indeed the catastrophising, blaming, and rash jumping to conclusions is yet more cognitive distortion you are adding into that polarisation distortion you have fallen back on so many times.

It doesn't matter can many times you say it, it was likely that the woman asking that girl if she was in the wrong toilet was not a feminist at all.

I doubt you have convinced anyone. But hey, maybe you have. Good to be optimistic.

I studied engineering so am not too familiar with gathering evidence from people. However this is the first time I've ever heard of "group storytelling, sculpture and performance workshops" being used to collate evidence. It's beyond satire.

It's beyond satire.

To call this robust and unbiased research certainly is.

Collecting robust evidence from 'group storytelling' and 'performance workshops'? WTAF? I mean immediately that makes alarm bells ring in my head - group storytelling as a means of collecting 'data'. No .... as a means of viewing group think ? Yes.

Sculpture as a means to collect data? Really??

Workshops with performance aspects, good to collect behavioural data on movement and efficiencies etc. But on toilet interactions?

I did read this article, but I could not see how anyone could possibly post it as evidence. However, I await to see why OP thought it was credible and why they posted it.

So, presumably because you think confronting masculine [male] seeming children

On what planet do all kids with short hair look like boys? I never have any trouble telling girls from boys, whatever hair they have. Does anyone, really?

@Helleofabore
Yes. I would ask if they were in the right space for them if I honestly thought that this was a teenaged boy.

Right, so you are GC and you do police womens toilets, including for any children who do not look like a girl to you.

Sort of goes against the faux innocent denial that this is happening and squashes the past five pages of devotees pushing the narrative that it’s got nothing to do with GC beliefs.

Its a lot easier to mistake a female for a male than a child for an adult. So, since as a pp devotee claimed “GC feminists are better than average at telling sex”- I’m sure this superiority in observational skills extends to telling who is an adult and who is a child as well.

So exactly how is a child of any threat to your safety? Why can’t you leave children alone and limit yourself to confronting any adults you think are males?

On what planet do all kids with short hair look like boys? I never have any trouble telling girls from boys, whatever hair they have. Does anyone, really?

Occasionally, with prepubescent children. It rarely matters too much which sex they are so 'confrontation' isn't necessary.

@Onnabugeisha - Dolatowski was still a teenager when he brutally sexually assaulted two girls in women's toilets.

Damn right I'm going to police them. And if that upsets a couple of teenage girls with short hair, so be it (although I've never seen a teenage girl who looks like a boy). Id rather take the risk of a teenager being slightly offended than put any more children at risk of violent sexual attacks.

Right, so you are GC OOh! Please miss, can I be HD? Please..

and you do police womens toilets, including for any children who do not look like a girl to you. Again. Men. Women have the right to tell men to fuck offf outr of female spaces. Why are you devoting so much time to refuting that?

Sort of goes against the faux innocent denial that this is happening and squashes the past five pages of devotees pushing the narrative that it’s got nothing to do with GC beliefs. No idea what that actually means though I can guess what you think it means! Devotees?!?!?!

Its a lot easier to mistake a female for a male than a child for an adult. So, since as a pp devotee claimed “GC feminists are better than average at telling sex”- I’m sure this superiority in observational skills extends to telling who is an adult and who is a child as well.
Ye gods! It is winter. People are wearing heavy coats, hats, scarves. Look out of your window. No matter what the age you will be able to identify the sex of the people walking passed. You will rarely have a doubt, especially if they are in motion, and will very rarely be wrong. Think about that honestly! Why do all humans beings have that ability?

So exactly how is a child of any threat to your safety? Why can’t you leave children alone and limit yourself to confronting any adults you think are males? Mmm! Safeguarding? Being mothers, grandmothers, sisters, human beings? Lots of reasons. All perfectly logical.

Unlike your diatribes, and choices of 'proofs' here!

Aye. But watch out for babes in arms... They can be the very devil!

Because 'quote' has disappeared on my browser I will do it this way.

"Right, so you are GC and you do police womens toilets, including for any children who do not look like a girl to you."

"Sort of goes against the faux innocent denial that this is happening and squashes the past five pages of devotees pushing the narrative that it’s got nothing to do with GC beliefs."

Again, you are the one poster here that is twisting a simple query into a hateful act. Not anyone else here. Just you .

Why are you doing that?

There is a big difference from asking the question 'Do you mean to be in the female toilets?' to 'confronting' a teenager.

You seek to make this into a catastrophic event. I think we can now see that you have changed the definition to 'confronting' to incorporate polite query.

"Its a lot easier to mistake a female for a male than a child for an adult. So, since as a pp devotee claimed “GC feminists are better than average at telling sex”- I’m sure this superiority in observational skills extends to telling who is an adult and who is a child as well."

We are talking about teens here. Teens. Now, as a 20 something, I was mistaken for a teen. I know many young women who also have been asked for ID. However, as a teen of 15, I was also never asked for ID because I dressed as an adult and had the attitude of an adult because I was working full time with adults.

You are talking absolute bollocks.

And yes, because I am also a mother to a teen and spend a huge amount of time with teens, I am probably pretty fucking likely to be able to work out the sex of a teen unless they were a very young child put on puberty blockers.

"So exactly how is a child of any threat to your safety? Why can’t you leave children alone and limit yourself to confronting any adults you think are males?"

Oh... so again we are back to 'child'. Convenient twist of language.

And again, you have contorted 'politely enquire' to 'confrontation'.

It is clear you are using cognitive distortions to attempt to convince people because you don't seem to be able to provide anything else except emotional manipulation.

But nice that you gave me permission to ask an adult male whether they should be in the female single sex space. I appreciate your kind gesture.

Sort of goes against the faux innocent denial that this is happening and squashes the past five pages of devotees pushing the narrative that it’s got nothing to do with GC beliefs

Are you some sort of idiot?
All poodles are dogs, not all dogs are poodles. GC women might police womens toilets to keep men out, that doesn't mean anyone asking a girl if she's a boy is GC. Like you've been told, GC people are more likley to be able to tell a boy from a girl, but lets be honest, almost all of us can do it with ease.

If we ask someone if they are in the wrong toilets, its incredibly likely that they are.

You're confusing yourself, btw. Are you talking about children or teenagers? Teenagers can be adults. 15-16 year old boys can be dangerous.

Why are you so obsessed with telling us to not object to obvious males in the womens toilets? Why not tell us that?

Right. I have quote back on my browser.

I think it is blindingly clear by now that you have a deep prejudice against people on this board who disagree with you.

"Sort of goes against the faux innocent denial that this is happening and squashes the past five pages of devotees pushing the narrative that it’s got nothing to do with GC beliefs."

I suspect that you don't understand where the point of view that many of the posters on this board comes from. It comes from labelling people as 'gender critical' and trying to box it all up as beliefs. a) we are not an echo chamber and b) we are not a hive mind.

We don't all think alike, but we might share a number of points of views.

However, the attempt to also portray the combination of scientific fact and accepted societal norms as controversial and 'ideological' is laughable.

Scientific fact = that people cannot change sex

Societal norm and expectation = that females need single sex spaces for their safety and dignity and toilets are one of these, and there is a very long history of data to reflect why women and girls need these spaces. Therefore males should keep out of those spaces.

'Devotees'. Really? That is the best you can do?

OP also doesn't think that women and girls are deserving of dignity and privacy away from pubescent males either.

I wonder if OP has much contact with teenagers. I think we are beginning to hear from the current teenaged girls that they most definitely don't want to use toilets with any males in them.

Yet, OP seems happy that in a public toilet that no female should have privacy away from a male that is x years old (depending on what this OP is wanting to call teenaged or child).

So much so, they have continued to attempt to twist people's words. And they seem to honestly believe that a polite query is a 'confrontation' that is going to be damaging to that teenager. I know that our teens have poor mental health, but seriously, if a teenager really cannot have an adult politely ask them this question, I would be asking who the fuck is telling teenagers that this question is 'confrontation' and that they have been seriously harmed by being asked a perfectly reasonable and polite question. When it is just as probable that the person who a feminist or a mother of a current teen perceives as a male, is in fact a male, and may well be in the wrong toilet.

Fuck! I have walked into or just about walked into the male toilet by accident too many times to count. Why is this a 'rare' thing that no teen ever does so therefore it cannot ever be anything but hate?

Some serious distorting here that I cannot believe any reader will not see.

Did @Onnabugeisha ever come back with the top 3 ways a male can know he’s a woman or is the squirrel pointing still continuing?