Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

Reposting as for some reason, beastlyslumber is lying again about what she posted.

You can read her own words - she clearly stated that what she wants is the following: 'unaccompanied males cannot be given asylum in the uk except under certain conditions.'

Here's one of the articles that this thread has brought to mind.

Germaine Aziz was sold to a brothel when she was 17 years old. A young Jewish girl in Algeria in the 1950s, she was brought to Oran by a Spanish woman, Madame Fernande, for the promise of a job with another Spaniard, Madame Carmen. Crossing the threshold of that brothel, which she believed to be a bar, changed Aziz’s life forever.

Ensnared in a complex system of debt with the brothel owner, Aziz was forced to work from ten in the morning to midnight every day. She saw 80 to 100 clients a day for years to pay off the charges of her initial travel to Oran, as well as the extortionate fees for laundry, food and day-to-day essentials that Madame Carmen charged her. Germaine Aziz shared these experiences in her memoire Les chambres closes: histoire d’une prostituée juive d’Algérie, written in 2007.

In La prostitution coloniale, historian Christelle Taraud describes the French imperial system of prostitution in North Africa as a “carceral and coercive system”. Prostitution was legal in Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco during the 19th and 20th century and heavily controlled by the French state to protect French citizens from venereal disease at the expense of the freedom of sex workers.

Having been formally registered with the colonial authorities as a prostitute, Aziz was unable to find a new job outside of sex work or travel without permission of her brothel manager or the police. One failed escape attempt led to being trapped by an angry crowd before being returned to the brothel “like a thief” by the police. Aziz’s experience of sex work mirrors that of thousands of women within the French Empire in North Africa. Women, particularly colonised women, were reduced to vectors of disease.

The most famous quartier réservé (red-light district) in North Africa was Bousbir in Casablanca. Home to hundreds of sex workers and located a few miles from the city, Bousbir was surrounded by high stone walls. Armed guards manned its only gate to keep the women contained within. According to a Maury and Mathieu’s study of Bousbir, 71% of the more than 640 women worked in the roughly 44 brothels. These mostly employed Moroccan women, although one was solely European.

continues at https://socialhistory.org.uk/shs_exchange/colonialism-and-sex-work-in-french-north-africa/ social history

An equivalent today might be european men's behaviour in Thailand, which I mentioned earlier. I'm sorry, but not all the single men who travel there for holidays are picking it as a destination because they're interested in "temple architecture". Some, yes. But not in those numbers. If we were willing to condemn our own men's behavioir abroad, maybe we'd have the gumption to confront the same phenomenon (of men who treat women from other cultural/racial/religious backgrounds as lesser) when we see it from the other end of the equation.

In short, I don't believe that this discussion is in good faith.

So fucking what? If you told us you believed the sky was blue, I'd pop my head out of the window to check. Your beliefs are of zero import.

It's down to the parents to remember where they are now living and make sure their kids are brought up with Western values. That sounds colonial but maybe Shamima Begum would be now in a nice graduate job in the UK if her parents had kept a closer eye and let her be a normal Western kid? This isn't just about men from other countries deciding all Western women are "up for it". It is about making sure immigrants assimilate to some level and don't bring their out of date customs with them.

I don't see an issue with telling young male immigrants to this country that attitudes to women differ here and treating women as whores won't be acceptable. It doesn't matter if they've never done anything wrong, we all get treated in certain ways because some people do things wrong from getting tickets checked to make sure we've paid on a train to having to show ID to show we're old enough to buy alcohol. If they want to live here, tough luck, they'll have to out up with "being educated". They want something from us, not the other way round, so if they come here they have to abide by our rules, such as they are (point about Wayne Couzens definitely taken).

You're the one trying to shut down any alternate viewpoints.

I've answered pages back about AHA. She writes about France, not the UK. France, like Germany, is a very different country, with a very different culture and immigrant profile to the UK.

We don't have lots of Algerian immigrants here - did that escape you? Or are all foreigners the same, in your book? Do you think French and English culture and criminal justice systems are identical?

They will shout down anyone who suggests looking at data - making it pretty obvious that an evidence-based approach is the last thing they want - and issue endless ad hominem attacks against anyone calling for evidence, nuance or data.

Yet EVERYONE has said they want more data. You've had nothing to say about the data that has been posted, nothing to say about the substantial quotes from AHA, who is clearly the expert on the topic. No one has shouted you down. Everyone has agreed that more data would be great.

You can read her own words - she clearly stated that what she wants is the following: 'unaccompanied males cannot be given asylum in the uk except under certain conditions.'

How are you translating this to 'unaccompanied males would be banned'? Hard to believe you're in good faith when you keep twisting my words, xxyzzz

Prostitution is legal in Germany. Massive industry.

Should we ban immigrants from Germany?

Discuss.

What about immigrants from Catholic countries? They have a really bad attitude to women. Look at Ireland and its Laundries. The Catholic Church is opposed to abortion. Should we ban them too?

Why? Why not?

This is so ignorant. She writes about the whole of Europe. I've posted extensive quotes from her talking about Germany and Sweden. Why are you ignoring what she says as if it's of no value and you know better? You aren't even reading the thread, what makes you qualified to comment at all?

Or maybe we could consider that not every individual necessarily agrees with or is personally responsible for the policies/laws/values of their country of origin?

Just a thought...

So quote where she writes about the UK.

Go on then.

I speak German. It's my second language. I am, actually, massively disturbed by the attitudes to prostitution in German media. Legalisation of of prostitution has led to a situation where far more German men are regular sex buyers than the equivalent British demographic.

I do not want that here, and if there is feedback from UK women saying that male German students on their year abroad in the UK are massive arseholes who expect to buy sex, then I will want compulsory education units on how to respect women administered to them by their uni programmes, before they get their student visas.

It's so fucked up that you ignore everything the expert has to say on the matter. Is it because she's a black woman, @xxyzz ? Maybe you don't think that black women who disagree with you are worth your time or energy? So much so, you don't even bother reading any of the quotes or following any of the links to her work. And yet, we're supposed to bow down to you, just because you bluster, hector, lie and namecall? When you have had nothing of substance to say (except 'we need more data', which literally everyone has agreed with). Awful.

Seriously, sexual abuse in UK universities is bad enough as it is. Why would I be obliged to close my eyes and think of Bayern if it's being exacerbated by German men?

I do not want that here, and if there is feedback from UK women saying that male German students on their year abroad in the UK are massive arseholes who expect to buy sex, then I will want compulsory education units on how to respect women administered to them by their uni programmes, before they get their student visas.

Agreed. I'm in Germany at the moment and it is disturbing how normalised the buying of women's bodies seems to be here. If they were causing a problem for women here there should be some kind of intervention, restrictions on visas, education programme or whatever is needed to protect women and girls.

I rented a romance comedy film once. Age-rating from 0.

Man goes to a megabrothel and has sex with a foreign woman who can't speak a word of German, and this is treated as funny. Rather than evidence she is fucking trapped in that brothel.

A lot of problems arise from having an ineffective and overworked (and misogynist) police force.

My brother got drunk and rude in a bar. Annoyed the barman. Barman called police, who attended quickly, arrested and cautioned my brother for verbal assault.

Now imagine that instead my brother had been sexually harassing a woman in the bar. Zero chance my brother would have been arrested and cautioned for that. The police wouldn’t have bothered to turn up and if they did wouldn’t have made an arrest, but they’d probably send the victim a leaflet about how not to be so victim-y next time.

In Rotherham many of the victims went to the police. The police failed to act which is how things got so bad.

Again who has argued this?

Literally no one has argued it.

You have refused to engage with anything on this thread apart from your own narrative.

You have refused to engage with women from these cultures who also agree that these are things that need to be spoken about.

Why don't those women's opinions count?

It's quite bizarre the lengths to which you are trying to deny that there could possibly be an issue because these men are migrants.

Why are we putting men's feelings above women and girls' safety? Or is it not just men's feelings, but our own feelings that we are good anti-racists? What's more important?

Very good questions, @Beastlyslumber .

In fact this whole thread is important: thanks for starting it, @BernardBlacksMolluscs Silence is complicity. Silence is what allowed men in Rotherham, and so many other towns, to get away with rape and intimidation for decades.

In Rotherham many of the victims went to the police. The police failed to act which is how things got so bad.

In Oldham, a young girl reported an attack to the police, and the desk clerk fobbed her off and told her to accept a lift home from two random strangers who happened to be in the station. She did. They raped her repeatedly. www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/i-tried-report-abuse-police-24911404

We discussed it on this thread, too. www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4532090-16-year-old-grooming-victim-in-Rochdale-was-arrested-for-being-a-madam?page=1

Top points for attempted DARVO. Always good to vary the ad hominems, no? Very imaginative way to avoid answering the question. And fascinating to see you assume that I'm white. 😂

I assume the reason you didn't link to my post where I asked you to quote where AHA writes about the UK is that...she doesn't ever write about the UK.

You could just have admitted that, you know. You would have looked like less of an arse.

You may not be interested in the reasons people behave in anti-social ways, but yes, generally, most people who want to prevent such behaviour are quite interested in that kind of question.

I assume the reason you didn't link to my post where I asked you to quote where AHA writes about the UK is that...she doesn't ever write about the UK.

But she does write about the UK. She even talks about the UK in one of the links I shared on here. You didn't bother to read the thread or follow the links.

fascinating to see you assume that I'm white.

I haven't assumed you're white. I have, however, come to the conclusion that you're racist.

As annoying as it is, it's actually quite useful to have someone like xyz on the thread. It helps to have someone repeatedly expose that they just want women to stop talking about male violence. It also helps to have someone who repeats the same nonsense over and over because onlookers get a proper insight into what the arguments are and what matters, and who is arguing in good faith and who really isn't.

It is very bizarre and you do wonder what their agenda is.

No, these are your attempts to avoid producing any data whatsoever - the best anyone has managed to produce is AHA - who doesn't actually write about the UK at all.

If you really can't see the point I was making, I suggest re-reading it. Slowly. Maybe a few times. Think about what beastlyslumber wrote, about banning all immigrant males - purely on the basis of their country/culture of origin.

It really shouldn't be rocket science to work out that collective responsibility = racism, that not every single person is a perfect representative of the typical values or culture in the place they grew up. But people like beastlyslumber will ban them anyway. Because racism.