Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

Until very recently it was possible to bring a bride from their village in as a wife. They never learned English and lived separate lives. This has been going on for generations. Now it's more difficult and they have to pass a citizenship test which would involve understanding and speaking English. Consequently more marriages are taking place within the communities already here. Provided we can hold the line against imported spouses, I'd expect improvements. My wife works at a London school and second generation Muslim girls are very 'London' even if their parents struggle to speak English.
One problem that may take longer to resolve is that often the boys are raised as little princes so feel strongly entitled that girls should defer to them, in fact they are quite contemptuous of women. This will only improve when they are confronted by increasing numbers of westernised women from within their communities (which is why they are so keen on importing 'uncontaminated' ones).

Absolutely we should be discussing and addressing sexism and sexist views and cultures whoever they’re coming from. Rotherham and similar show how women and children are so unimportant in our society that the fear of racism was enough to stop anything being done about horrendous abuse. Never again.

im from a minority racial group/ religion but no way would I accept labelling of feminism as racist because they criticized the behavior of some in my community. These things are too taboo- we should be able to discuss them openly and address both racism (where is does lie) and sexism.

It’s always a problem when there are groups of young men without the socialising influence of the rest of their families/communities to help them govern themselves.
I think there should be proper help for immigrants so that they can navigate the different structures in place here, and that should specifically include what British culture regards as discrimination and anti-social behaviour. Of course, some UK nationals could do with that as well!
of course that’s easy to say & hard to do. In the meantime, it’s great this subject is being raised so that women are potentially prepared with (what would otherwise be regarded as) a downright rude response

yes

by improving the lives of women in those cultures

1. the lives of women are improved
2. the lives of children are improved
3. the men from those societies will be less likely to behave disrespectfully towards women (and I would argue that their lives are improved)

are there reputable organisations that deal with feminist women with this aim?

and this is so true

big groups of young men regardless of culture are likely to behave badly towards women in my experience

This is such a necessary conversation, thank you for insisting that it happens.

So again, leaving it to “the feminists” WITHIN those countries is once again saying “women, you deal with it”.

plus there’s a problem for those feminists who “raise their head above the parapet” - it tends to get lobbed off!

I’ve been calling foul since long before Koln due to my lives experiences - I can only assume those so quick to scream racist/bigot are the ones who have learned from academic papers only.

I think framing this as foreigners in the uk is a narrow view.

There's something about depraved men feeling more comfortable exploring their depravities in foreign countries.

Be it Europeans in Asian and African countries or the reverse.

All the talk of education won't change anything for the men who think they've been set free to do whatever they want because they are on foreign soil.

Agree

Also, I think the issue is not related to "cultural sensitivities". It does a disservice to the many decent men to say that. The point is there is a need to really get across what behaviour is or isn't acceptable or legal in the country chosen.

.

So the problem is exactly the one that women in other countries face when hordes of white european men descend on their communities because they are on holiday, students, or are working for a European company that doesn't employ a local workforce, or when navy ships pull up in foreign ports.

Groups of men with no ties to a community treat women who aren't part of their culture with disrespect and sometimes violent.

The issue isn't the specific culture because it is a male problem across all cultures.

The problem is what is the social, political and economic controls that have allowed unattached men to congregate together.

Its really strange that even on mumsnet women feel unable to say the problem is men.

We should be able to say to local authorities, town planners that there should never be an area when men (who aren't always single) can congregate and over run a community.

As was once said in another set of circumstance, there should be a curfew for men.

And for those of you who have men in your lifes, do you know how they behave when they are away from home and "bonding" with other men.

Education and integration of boys and girls from all social cultural backgrounds is the way forwards. I work in a very mixed inner city comp and we have ambitious and respectful children from all cultural backgrounds. This then feeds upwards into their families and communities. Zero tolerance for any sexual harassment.

Appreciate it is unrelated to issue of groups of young men.

This is something that Ayaan Hirsi Ali wrote about in her book 'Prey'. Has anyone read it? I remember listening to her talking about it on Brendan O'Neill's podcast when it came out, but I still haven't read the book, so apologies if I mischaracterise her key point. I believe she was arguing that a large influx of young males with no families and nothing to tether them socially are going to cause problems. Instead of assimilating into Western culture, they are creating strongholds of their own culture, and importing attitudes to women and gays that run counter to our tolerant laws and culture in the West. She argues that countries should demand a greater commitment to cultural assimilation - i.e. if you want to live in the West, you have to adopt the rules and customs of the West. And that we should be using our existing laws to protect women and minorities.

I believe there's lots of research and statistics in the book. I think Jordan Peterson grilled her about it. Link to a clip from that interview here (full interview is linked under the clip on youtube):

I glad we can have this important discussion.

Prey sounds a very important book.

I have come to suspect that some men find it easier to ignore the little voice in their heads that says "sexually abusing women is wrong", if they target women who are different from them in some way; the difference may be ethnicity, nationality, or religious adherence, but any and all differences can be used by predators to other their victims and to muffle that little voice of conscience.

As said on this thread above, European men aren't saints, either. We know that european male colonisers raped women abroad and we know that European men are visiting Thailand to abuse children today. It's a global thing. Wherever it happens, and whoever they abuse, it is wrong.

I think respect for your host country and it's citizens should always come first for anyone who wishes to immigrate.
This does not mean you are giving up your own culture or values.

If we continue to “house” 100s of young men in random hotels in random towns we are going to have serious problems. In my town they hang around outside and it is intimidating. It’s becoming a no go area. The number of males outnumber women.

I think these issues have always been around, even in communities that are long-established in the UK and look outwardly 'liberal'.

Southall Black Sisters has existed for decades, for a reason:
https://southallblacksisters.org.uk/

I think the key is for male elders/religious leaders to condemn violence against women. But groups of young single men arriving in the country may not slot into established social structures.

the idea that it's the difference that makes men feel able to abuse women is interesting and something I hadn't considered, but actually makes total sense

and the idea that the solution is zero tolerance for misogyny, rather than agonising about the culture of the misogynist

I missed the other threads so sorry if i am eepeating ideas. I agree that any group of men abroad can act terribly. I think part of it is "othering" - when you see someone as massively different you are less empathetic.

I grew up in a diverse area and was hassled in the street by men from other cultures. Returning home after another such an incident I voiced this to a male friend and was told I was being racist.

I worked in Rochdale when the cases where hitting the media, no one can say culture played no part.

It's not as simple as groups of men though. In my work we seem to be increasingly encountering the need for seeking court FGM or forced marriage protection orders. Also young women married and effectively trapped at their in laws and sent out to work selling the Big Issue or similar. In the majority of cases there are women in the abusive family and often they are instrumental in the abuse. However they themselves are vulnerable in a number of ways too - lack of education, finances, fear of honor based violence, having themselves been abused and now part of the cycle.

When I say lack of education I mean in many ways. Some are illiterate in their own first language, nevermind English. The benefits system is difficult to navigate and sometimes visas aren't as they should be. But also the schemes that teach women about FGM find women do not know about female biology and the harm it does.

I think it does mean giving up some of your culture and values - or at least, it probably needs to, if it's going to work. I've thought before about going to live in UAE to earn a load of tax-free dosh, but never done it because it would mean giving up certain values that are very important to me, such as women's freedom, gay rights etc. By the same token, if someone believes that women should not have rights and freedoms, then that's a part of their culture or value system that they need to give up in order to live in the UK.

I think it's a big problem. Because on the one hand, we want to feel that different cultures can exist side by side. But often we see that this isn't possible because the clash is over fundamental issues. Some cultural differences are great - different festivals, foods, customs, clothes. But differences in fundamental values are a potential problem.

I think this runs the risk of eliding the problem. It seems like a good answer because it avoids the potential accusation of racism. Any man can be the problem, or any group of men = true. But in the UK we are dealing with specific groups of men causing specific problems for women in their own communities and outside their communities. We need to be able to look at, e.g. Pakistani grooming gangs and work out how and why they've been able to conduct their crimes. If we say, well it's misogyny, okay. But that doesn't give us the kind of information we actually need to know what's going on and crucially, how to stop it. The more information we have, the better.

It really is a difficult conversation to have, but we have got to have it. Well, not just us, but social workers, teachers, police officers, government agencies and decision makers.

i.e. if you want to live in the West, you have to adopt the rules and customs of the West. And that we should be using our existing laws to protect women and minorities
this sounds very good & sensible, I hope we can do this!
BUT the gvt seems to prefer problematic immigrants who can be used as 'red meat'/'dog whistle' to rile up sectors of the population according to whatever spinning & maneuvering they need in order to keep in power/keep the money flowing in thier direction

Yes, the Government has scapegoated immigrants to deflect from their own failings. The reason the NHS, housing blah blah are in a mess is because of all these immigrants draining resources. Nothing to do with chronic underfunding and shit management.

yes, I'm getting quite the pasting on the site stuff thread, outside the cosy confines of FWR. Much wide eyed 'are you sure you're not a racist OP?', and it works to shut down your thinking.

I've been to North Africa and to rural Turkey as a young woman. I got a taste of how western women are viewed there. The cultural norms of behaviour towards women differ around the world. it's just a fact.