Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

Posting on this thread to ask if anyone knows what’s going on at Astor College Dover? Some girls have been suspended for protesting against sexual assault at school after they were told to adjust their uniforms to take account of Afghan boys at school. A boy was arrested for rape and eventually released without charge on the basis that there is no evidence that a crime occurred. The girls are still very unhappy. It seems to be catnip to far right outlets and GB news are linking it to the small boats issue, but the girls voices seem to be being ignored by everyone else. Does anyone have any more information?

I saw something in the press and on twitter.

Now, I'm going to write what was said in those discussions so want to give an advanced Trigger warning for SA so if that's likely to upset someone, please use caution.

OK.

So what was written on Twitter and put in the press (and has now disappeared so make of that what you will) was that a 15 year old girl at the school was raped on school premises. According to what was reported, and written on Twitter, one boy raped her, whilst 3 others acted as "look out" and encouraged him. They were allegedly under the care of Kent County Council (KCC) care services after arriving as unaccompanied and undocumented minors on a boat around the same time to Dover. There were concerns that perhaps they are not minors as this has previously happened but this was being denied by KCC. School had refused to comment as it was an ongoing investigation, as had the police and the immigration services.

That was the last I saw of it then nothing because I expected it to blow up across the media and had said to DH how worried this made me as our school is expected to be asked to take in children from a local hotel which is now being used by immigrants who have entered the country this way as a way of filtering them from London to other areas of the South and South East. My DD is 16 soon so obviously I was horrified.

I am sorry but if you cannot be around girls without raping them unless they are fully covered, you should not be attending school. I don’t care about your possibly traumatic background. Rape is not ok, sexual harassment of girls is not ok.

I hadn't heard anything about this until now. Thanks for raising the issue.

Is this going to be another Rotherham/Rochdale/Telford-style cover up, where we don't pursue justice for little girls being raped and assaulted in case we offend twitter and get called Islamophobes? Sounds that way.

It certainly seems that way.

Surely she would have been taken to a rape suite? From what I can recall she was held down at points, surely there would have been bruising? To suggest she made it up is a disgrace and will prevent more young girls and women coming forward if they are attacked by anyone, not just migrants. I know we have a terrible conviction rate though for SA, just look at what's been covered up/ignored within the Met and other forces until now.

I think it’s important to say that the police have said that there is no evidence that a rape occurred and the accused has been released. He is just as entitled to a fair process as anyone else:

www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/police-probing-rape-of-schoolgirl-find-no-evidence-of-assa-282531/

But the girls are clearly still unhappy, have been protesting about harassment and have now been suspended themselves. I suppose the question is if this is as bad as it looks, or if there is more going on? Because with the limited amount of information available it looks as if these girls are being failed horribly.

I'm sorry to say this, but I don't know if I trust the police when they say a full investigation has been carried out. After everything we've seen the past few years, my faith in their impartiality has been completely destroyed.

There was a video, maybe on twitter, with the girls demonstrating outside (the school?) and saying nobody is listening to them, the girl is expected to just go back to school but she's traumatised. Of course.

The girls have assemblies where they are told to modify their behaviour because of the boys. The boys - no such meetings. Probably out playing football in the playground.

Same old same old.

I just hope that it IS impartial and that there are no sacred castes. The fact that these boys are asylum seekers should have zero impact on the investigation.

metro.co.uk/2022/11/20/eton-students-were-racist-and-misogynistic-towards-state-school-girls-17792798/amp/

the article above shows that a few Eton boys were misogynistic and racist. They were excluded and the school apologised unreservedly. Good !!! Horrible behaviour.

I just hope that we are cracking down equally hard on all harassment of girls, regardless of the background of the boys/men who are doing it.

One reason I picked single sex schools for all my children - it can be a lot simpler although most parents do not want to have children at different schools.
If Afghans are brought up in a country where women cannot even go to school never mind all the rest, it would not be surprising if they brought their upbringings and views with them here (which of course does not mean rape is fine in their country but does mean the way girls are treated is very different)

The local authority should be protecting the girls and indeed educating the boys on the requirements and rules of the UK before letting them loose en masse into local schools.

Same here. I could see the pressure from certain quarters of the media to declare that it hadn't happened.

When caught between Me Too/I Believe Her and supporting allegations against a rapist who isn't white British, those people always side with the alleged rapist. They're so scared that someone should assume they automatically believe ALL allegations of rape against men and boys of other ethnicities, that they make a huge performance of not believing ANY.

I believe the girls and I think it's disgusting they're not being helped in any way including the mainstream media reporting on this or doing proper investigative journalism into the girls point of view (and that of their parents). If it's true the school has asked them to modify their behaviour and suspended them for protesting against sexual harassment surely that's outright discrimination?

I think it's highly, highly unlikely that a large group of girls would all be saying the same thing if there wasn't some truth to it.

We need to remember that the police allowed Rotherham to happen, enabled Couzens and Carrick, strip searched a female child without a good reason, without following due process and whilst she was menstruating. They don't have a track record of listening to female children.

This smells very Rotherham adjacent to me.

I'm always shocked by this behaviour because the people who are willing to sacrifice female children so they can put a certain category forward as a sacred caste rarely benefit the majority of people in that group.

I'm guessing that the majority of refugees want rid of any rapists and child sexual abusers as much as the locals do.

I think there's a lot to be said for sex segregation in education in the case where boys are coming to the UK from insanely misogynistic cultures, like Afghanistan. Why should local girls be expected to put up with this misogyny?

Also they see them as fair game, already fallen. And the authorities are terrified of looking racist or anti immigrant. They don't mind being anti white working class though.

What must the women refugees from Afghanistan bringing their daughters here hoping for a better life think when they see young girls being treated in this way? It must be incredibly depressing.

This is the problem we have in our house though.

DH who grew up in the 80s on a large estate thinks both our DCs should be out with mates or popping to the local shops alone. We are looking at moving house soon to a village which would mean two buses to school. I'm totally against that because it means going into the big town.

We have already had two rapes in the last 4 months by an unknown guy who followed the two young women home. When they found him via DNA because he was caught over benefit fraud and identity theft, it turned out he was an undocumented migrant who admitted to arriving via dinghy. We have two hotels with these men in in the town centre, and two more in adjacent smaller towns. They do the usual of hanging around outside being inappropriate to any female who walks past.

I don't feel it's safe for my two to go around near that. There is always a big group of men outside the local independent burger bar. They regularly cat call and try and intimidate young girls. One I saw put his arm round a girl, she told him to piss off and he got very aggressive, I pretended I knew her and they backed off but I had to stand at the bus stop with her until I felt she was safely on a bus.

My DD is gay, and gobby. I've taught them to stand up for themselves. But I fear what the response would be should she get accosted by a group of these men who don't get no means no.

She already got told she should be chucked from a roof at school for being gay, and her brother was told by a vile bully he should rape her to teach her to be straight, DS was so upset but he's not a hard kid and was petrified. School were great and dealt with it.

We are consistently letting our girls down and out LGBTQ community, and nice quiet lads like mine. All in the name of looking good? To who?

I want them to go and enjoy themselves. But I literally feel sick at the idea. Nowhere here feels safe. A big group went out with samurai swords and machetes 5 minutes from our current home this week. Smashing cars! Police are ignorant, inept and too scared to act.

That sounds do terrifying. I do not understand why police and politicians cannot act to protect girls and young women. It is shocking and these men must feel they can get away with anything.

When the behaviour of the 'bad' men goes past a certain threshold there is no one who is able or willing to stand up to them, and so they can do exactly as they please.
Out of control bad men are a potential problem for every society.

A slightly strange local example, as it involves Libyan military trainees housed on an army base just up the road from me rather than asylum seekers, refugees, or immigrants more generally and a man was among those raped.

In June 2014, Bassingbourn barracks, about 10 miles outside Cambridge, was reopened to train Libyan troops. (The barracks had been closed in 2012.) Wikipedia notes:

Although nearby residents were originally informed that the Libyan cadets would only be permitted to leave the base on escorted visits the rules were subsequently relaxed. Shortly afterwards, a number of complaints of sexual assault were made against some of the trainees. Five were later charged with a series of sexual offences against both women and men: of these, two appeared before Cambridge Magistrates' Court and admitted carrying out a series of assaults on women in Cambridge's Market Square area on 26 October 2014, two were charged with raping a man in Cambridge, and the fifth was charged with three counts of sexual assault. As a result, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) decided to terminate the training programme early, saying in a statement in November 2014: "Training was initially expected to last until the end of November but we have agreed with the Libyan government that it is best for all involved to bring forward the training completion date. The recruits will be returning to Libya in the coming days”. It was also discovered that a further five of the trainees had applied for asylum in the UK.

On 15 May 2015, two Libyan cadets were each jailed for 12 years for raping a man in Cambridge in a prolonged attack in Christ's Pieces, a park in the city centre. Following the sentencing, Andrew Lansley, the South Cambridgeshire MP at the time that the attacks took place, told the BBC "mistakes had been made" adding that he hoped the sentencing would provide some "redress" and acknowledging that "discipline inside the base really fell apart". A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said it "condemned" the incidents adding that such training "will not be repeated at Bassingbourn. Following the conclusion of the training the prime minister tasked the MoD with producing a report on the programme and the defence secretary has now presented its findings to the House of Commons".

After the rape trial verdicts were returned, it was revealed that three other Libyan cadets had already pleaded guilty to unrelated sex attacks which had taken place in Cambridge on the same night. They had been sentenced at Norwich Crown Court on 13 May but reporting restrictions had been in place until the rape case was concluded. Of the three defendants, one admitted two counts of sexual assault and the theft of a bicycle and was jailed for 12 months; the second admitted three counts of sexual assault, one count of exposure and the theft of a bicycle and was jailed 10 months; the third admitted two counts of sexual assault, one count of using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour and the theft of a bicycle and was jailed for 10 months. All three were put on the sex offender register for 10 years.

The Libyan soldiers also caused damage costing £500,000 to repair.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassingbourn_Barracks#History

It would be extremely u seful if someone completely neutral on the issue of immigration could set up a fact based only website setting out the various examples (and it could also have a section for lies told about the asylum seekers as well as where the state plays down what they have done) just so we have all these facts. It is like drawing blood out of a stone to get some organisations to state someone was from particular groups as it does not suit their isn't immigration and asylum wonderful agenda. (And of course no one is saying British men don't do this kind of thing too of course - it is just useful to have the data)

For example I suspect the mostly women and children form Ukraine (as the men were forced to stay behind to fight and wanted to do so) are probably not causing the same problems as vast numbers of young men with damaged home lives with no wives, mothers around to curtail them. Even huge grounds of British young men let loose as the army well knows can cause problems which is why they have all kinds of rules to control them, military courts, curfews and the like.

Cultural and religious rules obviously affect behaviour, and we should be able to discuss this whether the rules come from another country or not.

It is possible to be against sexism and against racism and against bigotry against Muslims, all at the same time. They way to do this is to focus on each contested event separately and not to choose which events we discuss on the basis of some presumed pre-ranking of the oppression status of the concerned individuals which all too often results in refusing to address the harm to girls and women.

The problem, it seems to me, is that pointing out that sexist cultural beliefs are more common among some groups of migrant men (from several parts of the world and with somewhat different religions and backgrounds) than among native men is seen as racism or Islamophobia or xenophobia etc. because it is immediately assumed that the person pointing out those beliefs does so to label everyone from that country or with that religion as a sexist and a misogynist.

The fear of this possibility is ranked higher than the possible negative consequences to European women and girls who live in areas where large numbers of young men separated from their families are held together in one place (always problematic for women's safety, this, irrespective of who the young men are).

This also links to the widespread lack of statistical literacy in general. Not all men rape, for instance, but some small percentage do, and it is pretty clear that sub-cultures men belong to in the West, and different cultures globally, show differences in that percentage figure.

I disapprove of the idea that we should never criticise other cultures and their views on women, because this supports the view that migrant men should not be taught about the rules of the culture into which they have immigrated but already somehow miraculously know what they are as thinking otherwise would be insulting.

People do migrate with the cultural values they have and won't instantly drop them in a different culture. I wouldn't drop mine if I was suddenly transported to Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. Much more education should be done about women's and girls' rights in Europe.

Of course the problem is, as always, MEN (especially single men who are not part of family units) and the people who are willing to sacrifice women and children to appease them and look progressive.

I don't really see what's progressive about supporting men in an Afghanistan-style approach to women and girls though.

It's not the women refugees causing the problems as PP have said. It's the men. Those who hand wave away the problems and describe people speaking up as right wing or racist are letting women and children refugees down as much as the local women and girls. So they're not 'pro- refugee' they're 'pro male abuser refugees'.

Some women refugees will have come to the UK in part to get away from misogyny and crimes against women by men. Whilst I know it's not as bad here as where they've come from it must be depressing to find out they and their daughters are still second class citizens and rape is essentially legal even if it's brushed under the carpet rather than championed in this country.

We are consistently letting our girls down and out LGBTQ community

so you would be happy for any men who identified as women to enter female single sex spaces? That is what the TQ bit is after.

Of course the problem is, as always, MEN (especially single men who are not part of family units)
Surely this is only going to get worse now?
As women have better access to well-paid jobs, and because they can now collaborate and support each other on a much wider scale, so can warn each other about the red flags etc to look out for. All this surely means that there will be more and more badly behaved men who cannot take out their frustrations on a trapped woman and they become a problem for wider society?
Wasn't marriage mostly a way of making women 'cannon fodder'... making them absorb men's violence in order to contain it and stop it spilling over?