Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

Is it?

Or is it essential, do that we don't accidentally end up making policy based on our prejudices or personal experiences, rather than on hard evidence?

Interesting that the assumption is made that it is easier for a woman to blame some poor, uprooted, nameless and incomeless foreigner than the white colleague, while at the same time ignoring that the white colleague has way more to lose, and might for this reason alone be more restrained - even of one doesn‘t buy into socialization.

On that note, in 2015 and 2016 several cases came to light (in Germany, but also in a camp at the French/Italian border) where female NGO workers at first did not report their rape/assault by migrant men, because they did not feed into right Wing propaganda. So much for ‚there is a reluctance to report guys of the wrong ethnicity.‘

That's literally what it said in the post I was responding to.

Nice try.

If the real issue is ALL men (and I agree it is) then I would expect to see marches, vigils and protests irrespective of the ethnicity or nationality of the perpetrators.

Yet that is not usually the case. I have yet to see any kind of large scale march or vigil for the victims of the grooming gangs. But there have been a number of protests for the victims of white British perpetrators. I think there might have been some protests organised for victims of other kinds of perpetrators but I can't remember them at the top of my head. I don't think they received the same kind of widespread publicity.

It seems to me that despite claims of all male violence being abhorrent, there is a silence or hesitency to be consistent in publicly "calling out" that male violence. If there were protests irrespective of the perpetrator, it would indicate a genuine desire to support all women who have faced sexual harassment and violence.

There was a suggestion above that sounded good to me - a way for women to report all kinds of predatory behaviour to an organisation that will genuinely try to collate such information and get police forces to take it seriously. Whether the police actually do or not is another issue.

The point is that we don’t actually know though. We have a statistic, but we don’t really can’t say anything useful about the validity of that statistic.

Even your example doesn’t necessarily generalise because NGO workers may be much more likely to be motivated by fears around being used by ‘right wing propoganda’ than the general population of rape victims (in Austria, at that). It may also be that the numbers of reports from
that group remained far lower than the actual prevalence because of the political beliefs and worries of the victims, even after people started reporting it.

It is interesting that you’ve decided to describe male rapists as ‘poor, uprooted, nameless and incomeless foreigner[s]’ as you reject any discussion that some women may find it less risky to report a sexual assault than if it were a white work
colleague. There’s plenty of evidence that male sex offenders get away with things because of their social standing, and their victims can be ostracised for reporting them. So it’s at least possible that this might affect reporting rates.

If you have a large population within the UK who want to kill gay people, then it's a problem. If you have a large population who think that women are male property and that white women are whores, then it's a problem

I'm sorry, but again, surely this is a police problem, not an ethnic or migrant problem. It is illegal to kill anyone in the UK and it should be illegal to harass people.

Rocksludge, personally I think these effects cancel each other out, you are the one trying to invalidate the statistics by hypothesising about a totally distorting effect of one factor, while ignoring the other.

As a scientist, I am absolutely for critically assessing results and coming up with more valid data based on the analysis. But if there are no better data to invalidate the findings based on an hunch, unproven and one-sided, is just silly.

How large is this portion of the UK population who ‘want to kill gay people’? And what is the likelihood of them acting on that desire? Does it matter if they would act on it? What about homophobia short of wanting to kill gay people?

How do we even distinguish between people who want to kill gay people and people who just make inflammatory homophobic statement? How can we be sure which ones are a risk?

What are their backgrounds and social situations? Do the numbers of people in this category vary across social groups? Are there any groups in which they form a majority? Does that matter?

So many questions. I doubt the answers line up as conveniently as some might assume.

I’m not try to do that. I listed all sorts of factors that might influence things. There is a great deal of data that shows, for example, that women are less likely to report rape where they don’t feel they’ll be believed or where they’ll be blamed. There’s data that shows that an individual’s ethnicity affects the extent to which reports of negative behaviour are believed. There’s all sorts of data that suggests we should be extremely wary of that kind of statistic.

I’m trying to show that it’s not a good idea to look at an alarming statistic - Asylum seekers constitute less than 1% of the population but 11% of reported rapes - an assume it’s clear evidence that men from certain cultures are much more likely to be sex offenders.

Maybe they are. Maybe they’re not. The data available on this thread doesn’t allow me to reach a conclusion. Crime stats are often based on really flawed datasets.

I think that anyone drawing conclusions that race is the issue

the conversation has pretty much all been around culture, no? The issue is differing cultural norms?

and there’s much talk of tape, quite legitimately. But the problems women have been wanting to talk about on these threads were often verbal harassment, that made public spaces unwelcoming for them

it seems to me that’s caused by an intersection of large groups of individuals young men with nothing to do, and young men who may be predisposed to have disordered views about women because of the prevailing culture they grew up in

Well we don't throw gay people off buildings here. It's legal to be gay here. Legal to marry your same sex partner. That's really different to how it is in Iran, Pakistan, Somalia. So yes it's a problem if we don't have a demand that immigrants don't give up on these values in order to live here. Let's just be real. I've met lots of gay people who are here precisely because they're unsafe in their home countries. Why would we want to import those values here?

And yet you're still pretending you don't have a racist agenda!!

FFS.

Game set and match. WTF. Because let's break international law on asylum seekers and the UK Equality Act why don't we.

But not all Iranian or Pakistani or Somali people do hate gay people. They don’t all throw them off buildings. Or even support those that do (they possibly wouldn’t express that publicly for many reasons).

We do also have plenty of home grown homophobes in this country though. They aren’t all from immigrant backgrounds either.

The data available in the stat allows you to reach a conclusion, though. It was published by the German state, after much feet dragging.

Of course, you can choose not to believe any statistics. You will then, however, also not be able to say that male violence is a thing. Sure, the statistics prove it, but as you said, if a victim fears it will not be believed, it won‘t report. And it is plausible that victims of female violence won‘t be easily believed…

Oh, the silliness of it all.

Where is that stat from??

Is it a UK statistic? If not, why are you quoting it in a discussion about the UK?

Let's have some facts based on evidence - not made-up stats.

Just looking at the community order given to the scumbag at assaulted KJK. This is the problem.

The problem being discussed here should be tackled from a law and order angle. Why would an asylum seeker take the risk of being deported for committing a crime?

It’s not UK. It’s Austria. And someone else posted it as evidence in response to the demands for data on this thread.

It’s not made up (any more than any stat is). And this particular discussion is about the extent to which it is actually evidence for the problem this thread is framed around.

Hi there, in terms of data, available data suggests that of group child grooming / CSA in England & Wales, Asian men are disproportionately likely to be the perpetrators. The proportion of offenders or suspected offenders varies from study to study, but is thought to be anywhere from 27% to 75%.

This fact checking website is very useful for parsing out the stats on this issue:

fullfact.org/crime/what-do-we-know-about-ethnicity-people-involved-sexual-offences-against-children/

xxyzz what is inherently different in the UK that the statistics published by the German state are irrelevant in your book?

But that’s waiting until someone gets hurt

are there not things that could be done to reduce harm in advance?

and I’m thinking of the story of groups of young men hanging about on city streets hissing at women and girls. Not illegal I don’t think. But likely to make women change their behaviour to avoid it

and given the evidence on this thread, I would venture that any woman who did complain would almost certainly be told she was motivated by racism

Surely you have laws in the UK that can be applied before someone gets hurt? Against hanging around and harassing people, following women, etc.
Honestly, social and educational interventions take an awful lot longer.

The peculiar thing is I am not a law and order type of person. But when it comes to people panicking that gays are going to be thrown off rooftops and suchlike, a little bit of law and order would not go amiss.

Well yes, but how laws like that going to be enforced?

We have a declining police force. There is also the concern that a woman reporting such groups of men, if they are immigrants, may be put down to her being racist.

What? If you're going to try an ad hominem, you could at least make it a logical one, that relates in any way to what I've been saying.

How you manage to get from my stating that men are the problem to me being a TRA is a mystery wrapped up in an enigma.

Good way to point out your total inability to argue with any of my points, however.

The solution to the problem of rape and sexual assault by all perpetrators, those from all cultures and ethnicities, is to enforce the existing laws.

That's it.

If you care about VAWG, for all victims, you'll be shouting about the need to better fund the police and courts system. Can you point me to your thread on that?

Or do you strangely only care about VAWG when the perpetrators are immigrants or asylum seekers?

And if so, what does that say about you?