Thread to discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

This thread is to replace the one that got deleted earlier today, and the TAATs that came after it.

As per MNHQ in site stuff, we're OK to have this conversatrion

www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/4687254-how-do-we-discuss-the-reality-of-parts-of-the-uk-absorbing-large-numbers-of-men-from-other-cultures?reply=121883255

What I am saying is that this thread as a whole has generally not come across as the reasoned thoughts of those looking to address VAWG so much as the polemic of those looking to attack foreigners, for reasons unknown.

I think I must be reading a different thread to you.

Are you talking about posts from women who have experienced behaviours from groups of immigrant males in other European cities? Do you think that talking about those experiences and expressing concerns that similar things might happen here is 'attacking foreigners' because it isn't backed up by data in the UK? Or are you referring to something else?

Was this to me? What are you talking about? Where have I said any of these things?

But it doesn't say that!

If that isn't the case, then more focus on UK-based data and policy would be a good place to start. I appreciate people have mentioned AHA, but she has not, it would appear, seem to have written about the UK at all.

The trouble is that no one seems to be collecting this data. (IIRC, AHA does try to find out stats for the UK - she did a HUGE amount of very difficult research.) It's no good telling pp they're racist for not having data when we literally don't have the data. All we can do is look at the information and resources we do have, which includes women's anecdotal information and of course the Rotherham and Rochdale cases. I've repeatedly asked pp for more resources.

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/rapeconvictionsandethnicity

Yes.

I have asked for some evidence that this is a statistically significant problem in the UK. Ie that men from particular (which?) demographics are statistically more likely to be perpetrators of sexual crime in the UK. Because if they're not, then I'm not sure what the point of the thread is.

That you regard the suggestion that we should have actual evidence there's a problem as a problem in itself is um...problematic, no?

@beastlyslumber Also, I am not suggesting women need to toughen up so much as asking us to find ways to collectively challenge poor male behaviour. We should not be accepting low levels of misogyny so we do need to give women more platforms to help deal with this.

People on this thread are looking for data. We need more conclusive data on low level abuse in all its forms. If these low level crimes are not being reported, whether due to lack of police resources or people's own discomfort with the proceedure, we need an alternative. A women's organisation gathering data (even if it was only online anonymous reports), to get an accurate picture of what is happening up and down the country would be very helpful. At a local level, we need help to make our streets safe - I wish I could walk alone after dark, but in my town centre I no longer wish to take that risk. If one girl reports a minor incident, it will receive little attention. If 100 girls report a similar minor incident in the same street it will make more impact - we need women to come together to deal with particularly problem areas. Strength in numbers is probably what I am trying to say.

I have asked for some evidence that this is a statistically significant problem in the UK. Ie that men from particular (which?) demographics are statistically more likely to be perpetrators of sexual crime in the UK. Because if they're not, then I'm not sure what the point of the thread is.

But you've acknowledge that this data hasn't been collected because departments have been told not to do so!

So how can this evidence actually be produced?

The point of this thread is that we need to be able to talk about these things. Assuming that these things don't happen, or that people say they do are racist because the data has not been collected, is absurd.

You are the one who is posting from your own prejudices. You assume that anyone who wants to discuss this issue - or even thinks there is an issue to discuss - is a racist. You think that deporting rapists is racist. You think immigration controls are racist. You demand that women produce data that doesn't exist. You're just trawling the thread, looking for your 'gotcha' moment.

You're entitled to your opinions, but that's all they are - opinions. No better or worse than anyone else's.

What you're not entitled to do is try to shut down and silence women who are discussing male violence.

As an observer of 'This Thread', what I see is people feeling relieved to be able to actually discuss issues that have felt impossible and forbidden.

This is so true, we've seen the dangers that 'no debate' can bring and I can't believe after all this time that there are some women here trying to apply the TRA tactics to this subject.

The safety of women and girls MUST come first.

Okay, I agree with you @Unicorn1919

Nowhere have I said we're racist for not having data.

I've said we're racist for jumping to conclusions WITHOUT having that data, though, which surely you'd agree is the case??

On what basis are you deciding that the issue is race - when you admit we don't have the data - WITHOUT that view being based on bias?

What else could the view be based on, in the absence of evidence?

As a hypothesis, it's worth exploring the significance of ethnic or cultural background as a factor, fine. But let's not start a whole thread pretending the problem is clearly known and evidenced, when, frankly, that evidence is lacking.

And yes, you do have a particular responsibility to provide evidence when making claims against entire demographics or wanting to base policies such as 'ban asylum seekers' or 'send immigrants back home'. Because these are important areas of policy, with implications for lots of people - including, let's not forget, all the vulnerable female immigrants who somehow never get mentioned in these discussions of 'foreign' perpetrators and white victims.

We need more conclusive data on low level abuse in all its forms. If these low level crimes are not being reported, whether due to lack of police resources or people's own discomfort with the proceedure, we need an alternative.

Can I just say, though, we're not talking about 'low level' abuse. We're talking about rape, sexual assault and harassment. Those are not 'low level' crimes.

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

How can data be collected if women are silenced? And departments are told not to collect the data because of fears of accusations of racism?

You are trying to stop us even talking about it on here because of the lack of data!

I think a lot of what’s happening is classic seeking solutions when you still don’t properly understand the problem territory.

You make lots of assumptions to fill the sizeable gaps and try to come up with something that will work (immigration screenings, education programmes, whatever).

But actually, we don’t really understand the very complex underlying problems here. And it is important to be able to discuss them, including the role that race or ethnicity or culture or whatever might play.

As is understanding the significant constraints on getting the kind of data we need.

On what basis are you deciding that the issue is race - when you admit we don't have the data - WITHOUT that view being based on bias?

I've NEVER said the issue is race, and neither have most posters. You're the one who's decided that race is the issue. Most of us have been talking about laws, norms, values and culture.

What else could the view be based on, in the absence of evidence?

Anecdotal evidence is evidence. Evidence from other countries is evidence. Cases such as Rotherham and Rochdale are evidence.

I agree with you that we need statistical evidence too.

And yes, you do have a particular responsibility to provide evidence when making claims against entire demographics or wanting to base policies such as 'ban asylum seekers' or 'send immigrants back home'.

First of all, I don't think anyone has said 'ban asylum seekers' or 'send immigrants back home'. Personally I've said I'd like to see there being some kind of restrictions (not sure what) on unaccompanied male asylum seekers and also that rapists should be deported. However, I've made clear those are just my opinions and maybe there are better solutions. I don't make immigration policy, so I'm only putting forward my own ideas about what might potentially help.

But actually, we don’t really understand the very complex underlying problems here. And it is important to be able to discuss them, including the role that race or ethnicity or culture or whatever might play.

Well, I take your point but I think we do understand them to some extent. I think it's clear that culture has a role to play, just on the basis of logic and experience, if nothing else. If you have a bunch of young single males with no money and no ties to family, who come from cultures where unaccompanied women are seen as prey and as whores, and bring them to a country where women have a strong expectation of being free to wear whatever they like and go wherever they like and say whatever they please - at the very least you have a culture clash.

It's not that complex to understand, is it? The UK has certain cultural norms, such as gay rights, that other countries don't share. If you have a large population within the UK who want to kill gay people, then it's a problem. If you have a large population who think that women are male property and that white women are whores, then it's a problem.

I'm not saying we don't need more information and data but it's almost gaslighting to tell women that we can't know there's a problem unless we have a spreadsheet to wield.

@beastlyslumber I agree that rape and sexual harrassment etc are not low level, but I was very poorly trying to distinguish between the high profile rape cases that the police do investigate and those that are swept aside as less important. I agree that these other crimes are not trivial to the victims, but unfortunately they are much more commonplace.

Surely the cultural norms of a country are in part enforced by the law. Colonialists were able to rape the local women because they were the law. The problem in the UK seems to be that either there is no law against groping strange women and hanging around intimidating people or the police are turning a blind eye to it.

Unevidenced balderdash.

I don't think that anyone discussing this is racist - I think that anyone drawing conclusions that race is the issue WITHOUT ANY ACTUAL EVIDENCE that this is the case is racist.

I don't think deporting rapists is racist and haven't said this. I think that suggesting we base immigration policy and particularly policy on the vulnerable category of immigrants - asylum seekers - on no evidence whatsoever is racist.

I haven't expressed any opinions on immigration controls. I have said that bashing immigrants is a handy diversion gor a right-wing government or far right agitators who would like to draw attention away from their own failings.

I don't demand women produce data that doesn't exist. I have demanded that people who start goady threads on FWR actually have a basis for their grandiose, highly contentious claims. And that when challenged on this, that they put up or shut up.

As for your last point - you and those who started this thread are the ones trying to shut down genuine discussion of VAWG. Because what threads like this do is let off the hook all the white British perpetrators and ignore all the victims - including those from ethnic minorities themselves - whose perpetrators didn't fit into the handy " dangerous foreigner' stereotype you're desperate to focus on to the exclusion of all others.

Personally, I have the joy of having been sexually assaulted by men of a wide variety of ethnicities in the UK. And what did they all have in common?

They were all bloody MEN.

it's almost gaslighting to tell women that we can't know there's a problem

There’s a difference between knowing there’s a problem and defining that problem well though.

it can make all the difference in effectively solving the problem.

I don't think that anyone discussing this is racist - I think that anyone drawing conclusions that race is the issue WITHOUT ANY ACTUAL EVIDENCE that this is the case is racist.

But NO ONE EXCEPT YOU is saying that race is the issue @xxyzz .

Yes, I agree with that.

According to recent reports some elements within the police are perpetrating this behaviour so they are in the position of the colonialists!

Xxyzz, are you a TRA as well, because you've got their arguements down pat.

And yes, you do have a particular responsibility to provide evidence when making claims against entire demographics or wanting to base policies such as 'ban asylum seekers' or 'send immigrants back home'. Because these are important areas of policy, with implications for lots of people - including, let's not forget, all the vulnerable female immigrants who somehow never get mentioned in these discussions of 'foreign' perpetrators and white victims.

I'm impressed at your ability to convert suggestions to ensure sexual predators from other countries should face penalties on their ability to settle in the UK as an automatic call to 'ban asylum seekers' or 'send immigrants back home'.

You must think all asylum seekers or immigrants are incapable being law abiding people to make such a connection. And you seem to think that vulnerable female immigrants would be fine with criminal behaviour not impacting on a man's ability to secure residency in the UK.