Women and girls' sex-based rights

[StephanieSuperpowers]

Well, here we are...

The talk of Trans people in prison has me thinking that this is definitely an area where Trans people are not having their rights met. Obviously I think the issue of single sex safe spaces for women in one where there can be no compromise but I still think the State has a duty of care towards all prisoners, and being trans presents specific problems which the State in failing in its duty addressing.

Does it present more problems than being a paedophile in prison or a rapist? The answer to that is 'No' considering the overwhelming majority of trans male prisoners are incarcerated for sex crimes. What rights are not being met for trans prisoners?

I suppose the issue is, what would an acceptable solution look like? Clearly no trans prisoners can be put in the men's estate and trans women shouldn't be in the women's estate. But will trans women accept a specific wing for trans women only? And how would that be managed? By female staff? That could have management implications.

• *Why can't male trans prisoners be put in the male prison estate? There are already a number of them in there. Why would it need to be managed by female staff?

Why is where trans prisoners are incarcerated a matter for them to accept? Do other prisoners have this luxury of selecting their prison?

It's a very difficult area. No easy answers.

It's not a difficult area. The answer is easy. Prisons segregated by sex only - NO male prisoners in the female prison estate ever.

Solution is either the VIP wings of current male prisons (which a number of them are on already), a dedicated separate wing within the male prison estate, or if there are the numbers to justify it a completely separate prison unit.

If transwomen prisoners are demanding they need to socialise with other women then according to them their fellow transwomen prisoners are women so problem solved, socialise away.

Female trans prisoners can be accommodated on a separate wing in the female prison estate if there is a need. I am not even sure if there actually are any female trans prisoners and if there ever are the numbers will be miniscule and could be easily managed within the female estate.

I'm firmly on the side of prisons being single-sex spaces. If particular male prisoners are vulnerable for whatever reasons, they ought to be housed in appropriate spaces in the male estate.

Exactly, there are a number of vulnerable male prisoners within the male prison estate, would those harking on about male trans prisoners being vulnerable also advocate for these other vulnerable male prisoners to be accommodated in the female prison estate? Are they worried about the rights of these other vulnerable male prisoners not being met? Or is it just the special caste of trans males that matter?

Popping in to say hi to all the people who've come here from the other place. I was one who departed in the last schism. I'm sorry you've been screwed over as well and hope you all find this a healthy and welcoming space to discuss women's and girls' sex-based rights.

I am not even sure if there actually are any female trans prisoners

The last figures I saw for Scotland listed 1, I think. I don't remember whether that was 1 at the time, or 1 in total, but certainly they exist - in very small numbers.

Hello, Crows.

Hello Bint! My previous "outfit" was very Graceful.

Hello Crows, funny how things turn out isn’t it?

To be clear, I don't have strong views either way on how transwomen are incarcerated, other than to say that the principle of safe (or relatively safe) spaces for women should be maintained, which is where we all came in. A separate prison for all trans offenders? The real choice will probably come to money as much as anything else, and given the parlous state of our criminal justice system...

I have very strong views regarding women prisoners most of whom are vulnerable and have been subjected to male violence and coercion and their safety, privacy and dignity in a confined environment. An absolute ban on any male prisoners whatever they identify as being incarcerated in the female prison estate.

As for male trans prisoners provided they are kept out of the female prison estate I have no views nor care for where they go.

Aha! Wonderful to see you again.

Great glosswitch review of KIS's Defending women's spaces for those who haven't seen it:

thecritic.co.uk/defending-womens-spaces-again/

And via WPUK you can sponsor a copy of Karen's book to send to your MP (they will divert it to a different one if they get duplicates). I won't put up a link because I gather that fundraising links are, at least sometimes, not allowed here, but it should be easy to find via Google I think.

Glosswitch is such a brilliant writer. If every government spad was forced to go through the Glosswitch filter of Say What You Mean And Say It Clearly there would be a lot less shit in this world.

Gracenote - crumbs. (We went to Charleston and touched the furniture deliberately, one day some years back. How nice to see you again).

Gracenote! We went to Brighton and met a lovely little Jack Russel in the pub!

via WPUK you can sponsor a copy of Karen's book to send to your MP (they will divert it to a different one if they get duplicates).

Would they also divert it if your MP is an arse on whom the book would be wasted, but who would defend women’s spaces as a default conservative reflex? (In any case, there’s a good chance he’ll be out next time if Barbados and Jamaica don’t get to him first)

Hi @TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld and @Dotellhimpike . I don't remember the Jack Russell, I'm afraid but the furniture touching day is a stand out big fun day that I talk about every now and then. Touching William Makepeace Thackeray's armoire was such a thrill. It was also, I think, my first proper day out post brain wrong so that made it special as well.

I've been here for quite a while but I'm not a prolific poster. Well except for the Strictly threads. Go Hamza! I'll probably spend more time on this thread though. Thanks for the link, @Winterborne74 . Excellent review and a book I'd like to read.

I absolutely agree.

That Glosswitch piece is very good indeed. This line at the end jumped out at me: “No sooner are we making progress, than we have to explain something we knew a century ago.” It reminds of the old place.

Speaking of which, isn't it nice not being constantly bombarded by concern trolls! When I used to check that thread in the morning, a high number of new posts always let me know that some utter teed had been on making women explain everything yet again. I'm very much enjoying that not happening here.

It is not that no one understands what the word “woman” means any more, but rather that open understanding leads to extreme social censure. By contrast, ostentatious not-understanding has become a winning strategy for anyone wishing to appear more progressive than the common herd.

Glosswitch takes all the thoughts in my head and writes them so much better than I ever could.

This line also leapt out at me:

The shift from “anyone who suggests this might happen is fearmongering” to “anyone who suggests there’s a problem with this happening is fearmongering” has been remarkably swift.

The common factor is that women’s concerns are dismissed and belittled at every stage. It’s very telling that even the phrase “legitimate concerns” is used to mock.

From the dedicated thread in this folder:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3a918a08-70d8-11ed-a188-d2cb771901d6?shareToken=aeb345cd0257014019db91fd84eccbda

Oxford union official, Ellie Greaves, sorry for ‘hurting trans people’

She has recanted from her earlier stance arguing for the retention of a dedicated Women’s Officer. Her statement reads as if she is being held hostage:

“The comments I made in the article contribute to a bio-essentialist, narrow-minded narrative of what being a woman is, including the prioritisation of women over minorities. I cannot apologise enough for the damage and hurt I have caused the trans community.”

I suspect JTS was hoping for this kind of penance from us.

I saw that, it’s like a hostage statement. Disturbing.

Morning all, and hello countless new posters. I don't know what the prison answer is but I know what it's not and that's expecting women to solve it or accommodate it. Something no one has mentioned is the leniency that "gender problems" seem to get from some judges, our First Trans MP being a good example.

I suspect JTS was hoping for this kind of penance from us.

Tempting though it is to compose one, I really can't be arsed (and couldn't post it there if I did).