Women and girls' sex-based rights

[StephanieSuperpowers]

Well, here we are...

Women are more likely to be held further from their families than men, because there are fewer women's prisons. It's one of the reasons being in prison is particularly difficult for women, another being that men are less likely to visit anyway.

And when they have to think about it, they default to being men and think about what men want.

This for me @fenderstrat1953angelico is the absolute kernel of the matter. I think women are tolerated but when we make some men feel uncomfortable which is clearly what's happened over there they just want us to disappear. Which we have! So why are they still arguing!? Didn't they get what they wanted? Maybe it's like Brexit? Or a toddler after a tantrum has won them whatever it was they were screaming for. They carry on screaming for a bit even though they've probably forgotten what it was made them so furious? (Not a parent but seen enough toddler tantrums in my time!)

Not sure cyan. It's tiny numbers of people we are talking.

Poor Nicola Sturgeon has been exposed to a Bad Person.

twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1597668739222474753?s=20&t=HMCt7DqzAMDVDuWMjXVGrg

The talk of Trans people in prison has me thinking that this is definitely an area where Trans people are not having their rights met. Obviously I think the issue of single sex safe spaces for women in one where there can be no compromise but I still think the State has a duty of care towards all prisoners, and being trans presents specific problems which the State in failing in its duty addressing.

I suppose the issue is, what would an acceptable solution look like? Clearly no trans prisoners can be put in the men's estate and trans women shouldn't be in the women's estate. But will trans women accept a specific wing for trans women only? And how would that be managed? By female staff? That could have management implications.

It's a very difficult area. No easy answers.

I don't want to sound hard, but what transwomen would want or accept isn't a problem for women to resolve, except in the general sense that most of us wish for humane solutions to social problems.

No, it definitely isn't one for women to resolve, but I can see why politicians don't want to get mired in legislating for it.

I can see it's a hot potato for politicians, but transwomen are probably not the only men who are vulnerable in prisons. I'm guessing here, but I would think any man who looks a bit odd or weak would be liable to be victimised. Perhaps there should be a strategy that protects all vulnerable prisoners, rather than privileging one particular group.

There's a specific organisation campaigning on this - maybe they have ideas? kpssinfo.org/

kpssinfo.org/the-transgender-unit-e-wing/

A transgender wing has been tried and AFAIK, quietly abandoned. Any suggestion of specialist wings for transgender prisoners is met with outrage from TRA's because such wings are 'transphobic'. The MOJ judicial review confirmed that incarcerated transwomen's ability to socialise with females is a higher priority than female prisoner's safety, dignity and peace of mind.

bignosebignose, I saw that twitter vid and could understand very little of what was said, but she seemed to get her point across. Shame the reaction was silence and awkward shuffling though.

It's not difficult.

Trans women should be held in the men's estate and if necessary treated as any other vulnerable male prisoner. (I'm not that convinced that they are vulnerable but it wouldn't be me making the decision)

Trans men should be held in the female estate.

It is not up to trans women to decide what they find acceptable if they are in prison.

Staffing should be as normal.

Someone on the old place linked to a very interesting Irish radio piece about the quite unacceptable consequences (for women prisoners) of putting TW in a women's prison. It would take me forever to find it, as I no longer have an account there, but if anyone wants to try it was recent and I'm pretty sure posted by elderberry.

Do you mean the one where the woman gave Nicola Sturgeon a very large piece of her mind, Tricyrtis?

That's the one, lus. I've just listened for the third time, with the sound turned up higher, and understood a bit more.

I had to listen a couple of times. I don't usually have any difficulty with Scottish accents, but that was quite hard to catch.

It's here and there's a follow up, that I haven't listened to yet.

open.spotify.com/episode/1Q6XWtPg4wYL4HPUptUCcx?si=e80a7152f351463e

that was quite hard to catch

Same here, glad it's not just me.

Thanks for that link, pike, will check it out.

Thanks, pike. That's the one.

Indeed - this came up in a court today (Good Law Project & others v NHS England judicial review). It's an example of clear discrimination (on the grounds of sex) looked at one way; but of such discrimination not in fact existing looked at another way, if you for example argue that it's a function of relative prison population size and not of sex. And while the latter could still mean indirect even if not direct sex discrimination, there is of course the fact that some women will happen to end up housed closer to home than some men. And so on.

I don't know the exact court case they were talking about on this and so I don't know which way that one was ruled, re the sex discrimination. A question of relative spending per prison placement also came in the same case I believe.

But in terms informing a discussion of where male prisoners should be housed - it's interesting to hear that France has chosen to set up a specific prison for prisoners that identify as transgender, because that presumably means that such a solution is compliant with European HR requirements (which remain the basis of our own rights/discrimination laws).

But yes as someone has mentioned re the unsuccessful JR on prison policy here a year or so ago; the idea that women prisoners exist to provide an "affirmation" service to this subset of male prisoners seems to run very deep within England & Wales prison policy. (Scottish too I have no doubt but I know less about that).

Surely if transwomen want to socialise with women, they can do that in bars and cafes and so on, if amenable to all parties. But when you commit a crime serious enough for imprisonment, you lose the right to choose your own companions. Isn't that half the point of prison? That said, it's hard to see past a separate wing in a female prison being the least bad option. Agree that the idea that women prisoners exist to provide an "affirmation" service is wrong wrong wrong.

Males of whatever identity should be housed in a male prison. It is not a helpful precedent to put them in a women's prison and it is not necessary

Why is putting males in with vulnerable women the least bad option? Surely the least bad option is single sex prisons, I E no males in womens prison.

Do you think transmen prisoners should be housed in men's prisons?