Please help me understand. He/Him pronouns but female presenting?

[TraceyTheHamster]

Hello all,

I'm going to preference this by saying I’m about to go into work so might not be able to reply for a while.

Recently found out that DD wants to be known by a male name, use male pronouns but is still presenting very female. I’m not trying to say that there is a right or wrong way to look female at all (god now I’ve typed it, it sounds awful)… but what I mean is there’s no attempt to look like a male?

Two of DDs friends are the same. New male names, he/him pronouns but no change in how they present… leggings, high heels make up…

Again - now I’ve typed it, it looks awful! I promise im not an old hag who thinks woman must wear dresses and men can’t, but im trying to be supportive and don’t understand how this doesn’t trigger their dysphoria?

please help? Weve just found out she’s been socially transitioned at school for about two months. She’s 16.

I just don’t know where to go from here?

Pronouns are the least of your worries OP. There's so much to unpick with this - fortunately there's a lot of advice now for parents with children experimenting in this way. Re the school - the Head of Ofsted said yesterday that schools should NOT be transitioning children in secret from parents - that's a safeguarding issue. Here's a knowledgeable article about the hazards from Transgender Trend

www.transgendertrend.com/teenager-says-theyre-transgender/

So much of this depends on whether your daughter's just doing what teenagers do - experimenting and role playing - a phase & all a natural part of growing up. The challenge is to ensure that she doesn't get caught up with the dodgy groups directing her towards a lifetime of drugs and surgery and so it's important that you find out just what the school are doing. Sadly there are some schools irresponsibly involving children with dubious organisations like GIRES, Gendered Intelligence, Mermaids.

What do you think this is about for her?

Same here. My 18 year old wants to use he/him pronouns and has chosen a male name. She's been this way for a few years. She isn't massively feminine in the way she dressed but she wears skirts and dresses, flowery tops, nail varnish, jewellery, pink stuff etc. Her argument is that boys can wear this stuff, and, whilst I agree, it just doesn't sit right with me.

She's also autistic so I mostly ignore it and put it down as a symptom of her disability. I don't call her by her male name or use male pronouns, although I try to avoid using names and pronouns altogether.

If my daughter was neurotypical, I wouldn't pander to any of that bollocks at all. Not a chance that three friends are all genuinely transgender.

Are they just jumping on the bandwagon and trying to catch people out for misgendering them even though they look like women?

Is there a chance she's taking the piss to get the school to pay her some attention?

It’s a thing, currently.

Check out the sub Reddit called ‘FtM femininity’

It’s the inevitable result of the genderbread person being taught as fact. If sex can be different to gender identity and gender identity can be different to gender expression then yes, of course it’s possible to be (and look) female and wear stereotypical female clothes yet still be ‘male’ in one’s head.

And as pronouns are supposedly personal and decided by the referent rather than the speaker, the end result is a female person who appears female in every way but insists on being described as male.

(which teens love because it gives them power over parents/teachers/other adults - the power to report said adults to authorities for ‘misgendering’)

Genderbread person:

You might want to listen to some of the Stella O'Malley and Sasha Ayad podcasts Gender a Wider Lens They are both psychologists who've done a lot of work with gender-questioning teenagers (especially girls) and their familes and they have a lot of insights into why young girls do this and experience of how it plays out.

Hugs,
Transgender trend and safe schools alliance have a lot of resources and experienced people to talk this through with.

Bottom line may be making it clear that girls can wear anything, have any job and play with any toy. And maybe consider what you wear and say for a while to show your daughter that female stereotypes are bullshit.
A double mastectomy is not required.
It's illegal for her school to have done this without your consent. Double check they haven't been sent breast binders or testosterone via the school and are not being groomed online by mermaids.

Gender identity and gender expression are not the same. Boys and girls can wear what they want. Often this correlates with what is traditional for their gender, but often it doesn't. It's a travesty (no pun intended) that transgender people have to "live as" the gender they are in order to get a GRC.

Dd aged 19 has a lot of friends like this at university. We are supportive and obviously use their requested pronouns but I do find it hard to get my head round. Her closest friend presents as completely female, has a boyfriend and yet goes by a male name, identifies as non binary and uses “they” and insists they are in, what they call, a “queer relationship”, which I find hard to understand as they are to all extents and purposes female and their partner is male…!

Latest teen trend - but it's to fulfill the human need to feel part of a group but with the typical teen twist of needing to be 'different'. They'll grow out of it.

don’t understand how this doesn’t trigger their dysphoria?

Likeliest explanation is that they don't have dysphoria, I'd have thought.

It's a travesty (no pun intended) that transgender people have to "live as" the gender they are in order to get a GRC.

Yeah... not in the way that poster meant though.

Sorry for my late reply. It’s been a looong day!

Thank you to all who have posted and for the links to resources. I’ll take a good look tonight.

So many facets of 'gender'. So little clarity.

@MCbadgelore has already explained about the 'genderbread person' theory of gender identity and gender expression, which reduces 'gender identity' to a feeling in someone's head with no relationship to either their sex or the way they dress or behave. This seems to reduce 'gender identity' to nothing but a demand to be referred to by a specific set of pronouns.

Boys and girls can wear what they want. Often this correlates with what is traditional for their gender, but often it doesn't.

Do you mean 'sex' here, rather than 'gender'? If you mean 'gender', do you mean 'gender identity' or 'gender expression' or some other subset of 'gender'?

It's a travesty (no pun intended) that transgender people have to "live as" the gender they are in order to get a GRC.

What does this mean? How does someone 'live as' a gender? Do you mean they have to have a specific 'gender expression'? Because that isn't required for a GRC. In terms of 'living as' a gender, all that's required for a GRC is to change the name and title on their utility bills to those more appropriate for the opposite sex.

And when you say the 'gender they are' what do you mean? Is that the same as their 'gender identity'? How does anyone know what gender they are if it is unrelated to either their sex or their 'gender expression'?

Sorry OP, this doesn't help you at all, but I couldn't ignore all the 'gender they are' nonsense.

So, you explain: gender identity is not determined by or connected with sex; it is nothing to do with gender expression; it may or may not correlate with gender traditions. Hmm.

I know what sex is; likewise I understand gender expression in the sense of the expression of stereotypes societally associated with sex (or 'associated with gender', if 'gender' and 'sex' are understood to be synonymous).

But, help me out here. What is gender, if 'gender' is not synonymous with 'sex'?

And what is gender identity, given the constraints you offer?

I suspect you of being unable to explain coherently and non-circularly. In fact I'm sure you don't understand, because, to be blunt, this gender identity stuff is incapable of being understood; it's just nonsense from top to bottom.

Are you prepared to have a go at confounding my suspicions?

[Probably not, because transphobia or something.]

We're talking about children - not transsexual adults.

It’s weird for us (GC or believers in biology) because when we say “she” we are simply referring to chromosomes, not appearance/personality/souls, but we understand that that’s not really the case for gender ideologues- however much they protest that gender expression and gender identity are different. So this seems like having your cake and eating it.

It’s such a sexist over-complication isn’t it?

They’re taking the piss OP. This is how the whole ridiculous business will eat itself.

I think that it’s indicative of a “I’m not like other (dumb, silly, shallow, boy mad) girls!” type mindset, which has long been present in teen girls but is still disturbing. Suggests something is wrong with the way society sees teen girls.

Observation from my experience: The pronouns adjust back with most of them when they are ready to have relationships with the opposite/same sex. It’s a way for girls, particularly, to keep boys away. By 6th form, the die-hards are in a little vocal clique that everyone smiles, nods and keeps out of the way of, incase they say the wrong thing.

This is excellent news. Looks as if the Genderbread person has bitten its creators on the bum!

This allows girls to call themselves boys without any pressure to harm themselves with drugs or breast binders or surgery. They can dress up or not as they wish.

The downside is that it gives boys and men even easier access to all women's and girls' spaces. But they're taking this already anyway.

Let's hope this gives gender-questioning teens a safe pathway through to maturity without falling prey to physical harm.

But Dadjoke, you believe transwomen are women etc. So how can you object to transwomen living as women, since that's what they want to do? Or are you finally admitting that the genderist gospel of pink brains and blue brains, with doll-loving boys being secretly female, and train-loving girls being secretly male, is just a load of nonsense? As feminists have always said?

I think your ideology has just disappeared up its own arse.

It's just super trendy.
I very much doubt your DD even has gender dysphoria.
The correct response to this fad is to say "that's nice dear" and ignore it.

Ofcourseshecan
This is excellent news. Looks as if the Genderbread person has bitten its creators on the bum!

Exactly!
Perhaps more of us should declare ourselves men. I have genuinely never "felt" like a woman inside, so if we're going to be forced to accept the TRA view as reality, it's the only logical conclusion.