The vast majority of people can identify other people's sex; so why the pretence that men are women?

[NewLightbulbs]

Just this, really.

The vast majority of people can identify other people's sex very quickly; it's bloody obvious. So why the pretence that men are women, and we will threaten you if you don't play along?

Is that really being kind? Or is it bludgeoning with threats of job loss, assault, doxing, rape, death?

For correctly observing that a man is a man?

Is there any sanity at all in this state of affairs?

TW photis are filtered to fuck on social media and in professional photo shoots

you only have to see the filtered and unfiltered grace lavery or Emily bridges

they don’t pass but because women don’t go up to them saying “you’re a bloke aren’t you” they take that as evidence that they do and no one can tell

(you can’t identify out of the male privilege of not understanding why women dont routinely go around challenging men they don’t know)

I am not so sure that many younger TW are interested in whether they pass or not. For them, being a woman is a performance, a pantomime. I don’t think they always care whether we notice they are not biological women.

I think the same has happened with facial surgery and enhancements generally. It used to be the case that people were really concerned for it to look natural, so you couldn’t tell if something had been done. Now it is increasingly obvious, and it’s clear people don’t care if they have an absurd trout pout, for example. It’s all about displaying yourself, regardless of what is ‘natural’.

I think if you are young it is easy to imagine that being an adult woman (or man) is just an act. It’s something you can become by putting on clothes. My toddler used to put on my shoes and pretend to be me and I think that part of her thought she had become an adult mum for that moment. You need a certain level of maturity and to have gone through certain experiences and physical phases to understand what it means to be male or female.

I got deleted and I genuinely don't remember what I said. @mnhq, could you let me know please, so I can see what I said wrong? (by private message, obviously, if that's more appropriate. Thanks.

The Karolinska Institute in Sweden did some research about 20 years ago into how quickly we sex people. Women are quicker than men.

This is my experience too. My DP is useless at facial recognition. He's always getting actors mixed up.

Maybe women have evolved to be quick at sexing people for their own survival. Much like my hens are good at spotting cats from their body language.

Very perceptive post @Byfleet . I have a FB friend of many years who is a university lecturer - not in the UK. Anyway , she is a fine looking woman but has that bizarre collagen (?) pout.

I've often wondered how someone so intelligent can't see it looks obvious she has had 'work'. But your post goes some way to explaining it.

I don't agree about the 'small and non threatening' - how about that model chap threatening the women at the New York rally? How about IW?

@picklemewalnuts was referring to one individual. What struck me about that was more the huge sense of self diminishment about them - what? Do they think a woman is a diminished man? Do they feel they've abased themself?

I'm rubbish at differentiating male faces but I can definitely tell male from female.

I think, aside from base instinct, women are also more likely to see the work of makeup etc because we have greater awareness of it. Think of how many men claim to love celebrities who "don't wear makeup" when they've clearly had hours of work done to perfect the natural makeup look.

Then you get men who see the accoutrements femininity such as flippy hair, boobs, lipstick and think woman almost as a default reaction. Remember the Big Brother series with that drag queen and India Willoughby? He'd been his normal male self and then dressed up as his drag character and a number of the straight male participants were a bit freaked out because they found "her" very attractive.

Aww. Did you also think the Anchor butter cows were really dancing?

For a brief and unpleasant time, a TW attended my gym. They spent very very long periods of time in the women's changing rooms. So long that it was unavoidable once to have to go in there with them. It was just the two of us in there

I didn't change or shower but just used the loo. When I came out of the cubicle, they had moved from the main part of the changing room to stand by the washbasin in the small separate toilet section.

I don't know why they were there. They weren't using the toilet or washing their hands. There are mirrors in the main changing room. They just stood right next to me as I washed my hands.

It was massively, horrendously disturbing. I was shocked by how deeply I was frightened by it, how instinctive and unconscious that fear was.

I couldn't shake the sense that they knew perfectly well that they didn't pass and enjoyed the power trip.

You have to email them - there's no such account as mnhq !

Oh, d'oh, thank you

The actor I'm thinking of, Errol, tends to be very soft spoken and avoids big gestures. Seems to work hard not at being a 'diminished man' but at not being scary.
The way a very big, imposing man may have learned to avoid big fast gestures in case they are interpreted as being aggressive.

I appreciate their effort, but it must be hard work. There's absolutely no sniff of the 'India Willoughby pointing in your face' aggression at all.

It's weird. Some women and some young men can be androgynous in appearance but even if you genuinely can't tell from looking at them, a quick conversation would sort that out. Men and women have very different voices. This is how I know the video linked to earlier is a load of tosh. Even if the woman doing the confronting had a visual impairment and was unable to see the obvious female face, the obvious female voice would have been a dead give away. I suppose it's theoretically possible the woman was also hearing impaired - but she was responding in conversation easily enough.

I do agree it is about control. Some penis havers who go around with their beards and chest hair sticking over their shirts. They must know they're not read as women, but they demand we call them women (often with threats of violence) because it's about them controlling our words and our perceptions. It's about making us to afraid to say what is in front of us. It must be an absolute head rush for them.

That makes more sense. And it sounds like this person knows they don't pass, just toning down anything remotely 'macho' which is fine.

@BloodAndFire I had a similar (but less obnoxious) experience with a character I was 90% sure was a man (only 90%, because, being a woman, I kept my back firmly turned to him all the time). In a tiny changing room.
At the time I didn't know what to do.
Now I understand the issues, and my rights, I would be out of there and screaming the place down.

Well it's only obvious when its obvious. You will likely have met/ seen trans people and not even known that they were trans.

You think you can 'tell', but how do you actually know, if you don't know? (If you see what I mean). You don't. You only know when it is obvious.

I have a trans friend who has been living their life in their chosen gender for about 15 years, and newer friends have no idea that they were previously a different gender.

Female or male at birth, Fruits?

There's a difference.

I have no idea if I'm trans myself, let alone other people's inner genders - no-one will clarify enough for me to identify for sure. It's possible I'm agender, going by some definitions, although I wouldn't say I 'identify' as it - I either am or aren't!

But this thread is about identifying sex, not trans status.

You think you can 'tell', but how do you actually know, if you don't know? (If you see what I mean). You don't.

I agree with this - you're unlikely to come across information that proves you've gotten someone's sex wrong.

I see what you mean but I think it's very rare. All TW in the public sphere are obviously male. Why would there be not a single out TW who passes if its not very rare?

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

I imagine it's because they have worked hard to get where they are, and would like to just move on with their lives rather than have people judge how 'convincing' or not they may be, and constantly have to explain themselves.

My friend would not be 'out' because they do not want being trans to define their life and how people view them. That is the reason they do not even tell people who didn't know them 15 years ago. It's a part of their history but now they just want to move on and live their life.

My friend would not be 'out' because they do not want being trans to define their life and how people view them. That is the reason they do not even tell people who didn't know them 15 years ago. It's a part of their history but now they just want to move on and live their life.
So if the person isn't 'out', and presumably you don't mention it to newer friends either - how do you know these newer friends don't know the persons sex but are also not bringing it up?

The Yorkshire Guide to gender bollocks.

Spot on 😘

Apart from overall size (in relation to males) I find my attention drawn by other factors that don't add up. An unnatural sounding voice, or gestures and facial expressions that look learned.
When I'm watching TV I find myself thinking, why did they film that actor at that strange angle? Why has the camera suddenly pulled out for that shot? Why does that actor have so much more makeup on than the other actors? Why have the editors dubbed in someone else's voice? So it's often something like that that gets my attention initially.

@fruitsaladsweets
I think you make a reasonable point, but it is much, much harder for a man to pass as a woman than a woman to pass as a man. I remember watching The Crying Game and suddenly realising "Oh, so that's the actor that nobody is supposed to guess is male." Admittedly I knew beforehand there was a male playing a female in it, but it was immediately obvious who it was.