The vast majority of people can identify other people's sex; so why the pretence that men are women?

[NewLightbulbs]

Just this, really.

The vast majority of people can identify other people's sex very quickly; it's bloody obvious. So why the pretence that men are women, and we will threaten you if you don't play along?

Is that really being kind? Or is it bludgeoning with threats of job loss, assault, doxing, rape, death?

For correctly observing that a man is a man?

Is there any sanity at all in this state of affairs?

That's the same person isn't it? The cyclist what's-his-name? Are you trying to say you can't tell the one on the right is male from a sideview headshot because I think we're referring to real life in this thread.

In a side view headshot with the right makeup and lighting I could pass for 35 again but I'm clearly a lot older in real life😂

I think that's what they mean: that in a heavily doctored pic you may not be able to tell (although that's up for debate IMO), but looking at the same person in RL you absolutely can tell.

@DameHelena I see, thank you :)

As you say though, we don't live in heavily doctored photographs, we live in the real world so it doesn't really matter if a man can pass as a woman in a photo because anyone could pass as anything in a photo with the right lighting/prosthetics/makeup.

Yes, I agree. I do think that the emphasis on filtered images in the trans community is a symptom of how much TW spend living online rather than in the real world where perceptions are very different (i.e. there is no hiding behind a filter).

No there is no sanity.

There's not a lot of point disappearing down the rabbit hole of nitpicking can you tell, but really, how many do you just not know etc etc -

You only have to look at the biggest name TQ+ supporters (Steven Fry is this week's rather grubby example) to see that those most supporting this know exactly who are the males and who are the females in this situation, there is no question in their mind at all that sex is binary and fixed.

Because they extend two totally different sets of standards, expectations and values on two sex based groups, and they never shift any of those no matter what the degree of a male person's transition. There is never a point at which a TQ+ identified male disappears into the mud of the 'therapeutic resource for shitwork who isn't allowed a voice' group.

It is one giant, sexist game of lets pretend.

The brow line often gives them away. And the lip line. And the jaw line (although of course if you tilt your head and hold your mouth in a come hither look you can disguise it a bit).

My teen's school spent a huge amount of time teaching them how media images are doctored and not real. What a world we live in that we have to do that?

nilsmousehammer

I agreed with your whole post, but this in a nutshell is it.

It is one giant, sexist game of lets pretend.

Sorry quote should be in italics:

It is one giant, sexist game of lets pretend.

Steven Fry is this week's rather grubby example) to see that those most supporting this know exactly who are the males and who are the females in this situation

TRA in the tweets, TERF in the sheets.

shamelessly borrowed from Twitter and in reference to LOJ, but very applicable to Stephen Fry also

TRA in the tweets, TERF in the sheets

😂

It's an assertion of power and privilege to make people repeat lies. Very patriarchy. Much totalitarian. If we all do it, they'll know they've won.

They haven't won. There was a brief moment of confused silence when we all thought everyone else believed something impossible but that didn't hold for very long.

If we don’t play the game it makes certain penises flaccid and that’s, like, super sad.

Especially when it's a lady penis...

Many thanks to all of you, really enjoyed reading this discussion.

Posted last night because of frustration. I clocked that a prominent person claiming woman status, had as his Twitter picture - young, slim, girly, fresh-faced, sort-of elfin features and pixie haircut. Then happened to see on another site - real life, unposed, more recent photos of same person. My goodness, what a difference!!

But what PPs have said. Living your life online and having the ability to photoshop your image. Costs nothing, takes minutes; whereas female feminisation surgery costs ££££. And even then, there are all the other cues, so many other "tells" PPs have mentioned. Size, shoulders, size and shape of skull, hands, feet, gait etc. Not to mention attitude.

Posters have also mentioned smell, and oh yes, male smell is unmistakable.

So many cues.

Thank you all, for an interesting read.

They've done studies where they asked men to wear t-shirts for a while then sent them to women. The women could tell which man they would find attractive from the smell alone. All to do with disease resistance apparently.

We are just slightly sophisticated monkeys. And sex is very important to monkeys.

Gender performance is all well and good. But sometimes sex is important, and when it is, it REALLY is.

Gender performance is all well and good. But sometimes sex is important, and when it is, it REALLY is.
Yes.
It really puzzles me, the apparent lack of self-awareness among many who believe that they "pass". No, they don't.

But is that part of the appeal for some? That they know they don't "pass", but enjoy making people squirm or feel uncomfortable, an element of control/playing on ordinary people who are trying not to give offence?

I would imagine that the filters and heavy online lifestyle is having an impact on these people's ability to perceive themselves properly.

I had an ED as a teenager which I believe was partially driven by issues with proprioception. Thankfully I recovered but the closest I came to a relapse was a few years back when my friend showed me those IG filters. It honestly made my brain feel the same way I did at 14 where what I saw in the mirror no longer was right.

So yes, it is absurd that people are supposed to play along with the idea we can't tell men from women. But I think that part of the problem is that some of the people have convinced themselves they pass. And no, it's not kind to go along with the delusion.

Hopefully the link will work - KJK from about 4 years ago.

At around 4 mins there is a man who thinks everyone sees him as a woman. He may well truly think he is indistinguishable from women. He isn't. He is clearly male, even in his woman disguise.

So regarding the not passing, I am still 'be kind' enough (or perhaps just naive) to think that while some (most?) of the men in women's spaces are there to assert dominance (EI in Sheffield using the women's toilets at a Labour event being a good example of this) there may be some who truly believe they are seen as one of the girls and therefore not causing anyone in women's spaces any discomfort whatsoever. They have to suspend their own reality to think this but expect everyone they interact with to suspend theirs too.

There is TW working at a local clothes shop, who was the available server when I last bought something there. Clearly a man, who happened to be wearing a dress, with a feminine name on his name badge. I paid my money, said thank you when he handed me my item and left the shop. He probably thinks he passes, partly because of the totally unremarkable interaction we had. He doesn't.

Boy babies smell different from girl babies (not 100% but broadly speaking) so no one is telling me older males don't smell different from older females. I could usually tell by head shape too.

The Karolinska Institute in Sweden did some research about 20 years ago into how quickly we sex people. Women are quicker than men.

They probably wouldn't do that research now in case it 'offended' certain people.

Another giveaway is that they genuinely don’t look comfortable and relaxed.

The older ones I’ve seen have had an aggressively defensive stance, and the teen ones I’ve seen always look like they actually want to crawl into a hole when they’re alone. When they’re surrounded by rainbow-haired mates it’s more of a show-pony vibe.

It all just seems very unnatural, to the point that the body language has been what’s attracted my attention before I’ve even clocked anything else.

It all just seems such bloody joyless hard work. Just put a bit of eyeliner on and enjoy life, Barry.

That last point is interesting. There's a TW actor I've seen in a couple of programmes and also interviewed. They seem quite nice. There's a huge sense of self diminishment about them, a desire to show they are small and non threatening.

I don't agree about the 'small and non threatening' - how about that model chap threatening the women at the New York rally? How about IW?

Re the young women who have taken testosterone - I am now seeing a disproportionate number of them working behind the counter of coffee shops. Is this because their gender obsession has ruined their employment chances? If so, it is very sad