The vast majority of people can identify other people's sex; so why the pretence that men are women?

[NewLightbulbs]

Just this, really.

The vast majority of people can identify other people's sex very quickly; it's bloody obvious. So why the pretence that men are women, and we will threaten you if you don't play along?

Is that really being kind? Or is it bludgeoning with threats of job loss, assault, doxing, rape, death?

For correctly observing that a man is a man?

Is there any sanity at all in this state of affairs?

Nope. No-one is saying you can always tell. You, however, are saying that because occasionally people don't spot that the person is in fact male (or vice versa), this means that there is a 'good chance' the person is actually a woman. Your conclusion does not follow from your statement. You make a leap in order to try and justify 'nice trans women' using any spaces which they see fit to do so.

That’s exactly what they are saying: that we can always tell, even if we are blind.
How is this less extreme than saying there is a “good chance” a person we think is a TW is actually woman? My conclusion is at least evidence based. I’m not justifying any use of any spaces. I’m responding to the OPs thread and several comments of over confident people who mistakenly think they can always tell a born man from a born woman, even if blind.

How is this less extreme than saying there is a “good chance” a person we think is a TW is actually woman?

You're going to have to explain this sentence - what do you mean by 'woman' here?

Well I think sometimes (v.v. rarely) people will be mistaken but that is a far cry from suggesting that there is a good chance (rather then feeling possibility) that the person you think is a TW is an actual woman (I'm guessing you mean natal type - i.e. actual because if not then this sentence is meaningless).

But if you say you have evidence to support this, can you share it?

In terms of my evidence, the people I see all the time look like this

Or Eddie Izzard.

I.e. very obviously male and never seen a woman present like that (androgynous woman are hugely different)

A male entered my home to do some work a few months back (I didn't know about it as it was arranged by someone else as a surprise while I was away).

While they were there, they used the toilet.
They were clean, they flushed the toilet, left nothing on the floor etc..

2 days later when I came home, I could smell a man had been in my home before I even got up the stairs.

So, don't tell me I can't smell men even if I can't see them.
In a controlled environment, I can smell them days later if they pee.

They emit pungent odours which linger.
I suspect this comes from the same biological basis as the scent marking that some animals use to mark their territory with their urine, or other animals who rub up against things to leave their scent.

I cannot smell if a clean woman has used my toilet for a pee even on the same day.
I can always smell if a late teen or adult male has used my bathroom & unless I deep clean the room it takes a couple of days for the smell to go.

If you walk into a public ladies toilet & a man has used it, you can smell it.
It's the same overbearing smell that repels women from the mens toilets, presumably because we are bombarded with territorial marking scents from many sources all at once.

Explain how that reality is a logic fail?
Or, are you suggesting we are some kind of magical exception to all the other mammal and that humans don't actually scent mark?

Strange.
You can smell when people have just had sex unless they've washed really well, their bedroom smells of sex unless it's been cleaned, but you think you can't smell the sex of a human being?

Or do you just not want to believe the truth?

Somebody mistaking a woman for a transwoman does not show that women cannot tell.
It just shows that they have fallen for the belief they can't tell to such an extent that they are so worried a man is in disguise near them they get paranoid & falsely assume any slightly more androgynous looking woman might be a fake.
A fear based mistake is NOT a logic fail.
It's a reasonable fear of the violent sex that men who say they are not men are part of.

I know an elderly person with advanced dementia who 'accurately' smiles at men and scowls at women....the sex attraction drive is strong and innate...

Somebody mistaking a woman for a transwoman does not show that women cannot tell.. Yes it does show that one cannot always tell the sex of another person.

they have fallen for the belief they can't tell to such an extent that they are so worried a man is in disguise near them they get paranoid & falsely assume any slightly more androgynous looking woman might be a fake. A fear based mistake is NOT a logic fail.. These brainwashing and fear comments are merely the reasons why you think they cannot tell.

Doesnt change the fact that the statement that we can always tell another person’s sex (even if blind!) is patently false.

But then again, most exaggerations using “always” or “never” are usually false.

You're still failing to provide evidence of it being a 'good chance' that a person you think is a TW is a real woman. Do you have any or is your evidence just one time thats happenes? Because 'good chance' suggests a reasonably high likelihood not a remote possibility. What do you think of the examples I gave. Is there a good chance the person in the video is a real woman? It's that much of a slam dunk when I see males 'presenting as women' on a regular basis.

To be clear, I agree that there is a possibility I don't think it's very big at all but either way it is not an argument for making all female spaces mixed sex and it does not negate the OPs original point.

Well, since “good chance” is purely subjective, it doesn’t require evidence as it’s an opinion, not a fact.

I have demonstrated that the premise that women can always tell a TW from a natal woman is false. That was stated as a fact, not an opinion by other posters.
along with amusing anecdotes regarding ‘man’ smells.

along with amusing anecdotes regarding ‘man’ smells.

Well I mentioned an actual experiment but you appear to have missed that.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15135965/

Another one.

I know that experiment well, but sniffing T-shirts exclusively worn by men and rating how nice they smell isn’t any sort of evidence that women can always tell the sex of a person when at normal social distance out and about.

If it had been an experiment where women were given T-shirts worn by either sex and asked to predict the sex of who wore the shirt by sniffing it, then that would be interesting and have at least a little bit of relevance.

“These results suggest that sex-steroidal compounds modulate mood, memory and autonomic nervous system responses and increase their significance within specific behavioral contexts. These findings lend support to a specific role for these compounds in chemical communication between humans.”

Another irrelevant and useless study. Who cares about hormones and moods? This has nothing to do with can women always tell the sex of another person.

Onnabugeisha
"I have demonstrated that the premise that women can always tell a TW from a natal woman is false."

No you certainly have not. Just because you can't tell, doesn't mean the rest of us lack sensibilities.

And your mockery towards "amusing anecdotes regarding ‘man’ smells" leads me to believe that you yourself may lack women's sensitivity towards, e.g. smells emanating from men.

I fully acknowledge and agree with PPs points about male smells because I've experienced it myself. So have many other women. It's plain, clear, obvious. Simple experiment - compare the odour in a men's public toilet to that in a women's public toilet. Though these days, you're not guaranteed, unfortunately, that the women's is a male-free space. But there's a huge difference, and a very gagging difference for me and possibly some other women.

As to appearance - even men who have spent thousands on feminisation surgery, are still unable to reduce their skeletal frame, hand size, foot size, pelvis angle, and all the rest, very concrete clues.

A lot of men are also incapable of recognising their own male upbringing, male socialisation and male arrogance; and that can also give them away, even though the cosmetic surgery and the makeup and the styling should be "perfect female"!

That footage is indeed classic, and thanks for posting!

The thing about experiments @Onnabugeisha is that you can typically extrapolate. If sex-specific hormones and pheromones are causing mood and attraction differences, it follows that we subconsciously detect sex-specific hormones and pheromones.

The other thing to note is that any remotely GC experiments lose funding or don't get through ethics. Neatly meaning that people can say, "there's no proof". Well there wouldn't be if you're suppressing scientific enquiry.

I'd like to see a lot of study, I welcome it, I hope it's done. The TRAs don't seem to share my enthusiasm for the bright spotlight of scientific enquiry.

@NewLightbulbs

Oh, I think I have shown that the premise that women can always tell the sex of a person is an exaggerated claim that cannot be true.

It’s not a question of certain women who can tell and certain women who cannot tell because they lack magic powers sensibilities. Although I think it amusing that every thing you snarkily say about me- “you yourself may lack women's sensitivity” is actually applying to GC member at large, Jeanna Hoch, as she is the person who after an extended period of face to face interaction with bodies pressed close together (well within sniffing distance) mistook a natal woman for a TW. She’s my illustrative example if you will that your belief simply cannot be true.

The claim that “women can always tell the sex of another person” and one poster added on that this is true even if the woman in question is blind! Is patently false. And doubling down on it is a bit extremist tbh. You’re supposed to be on the side of science and biology and yet the ridiculousness of insisting that women can sniff a male person vs a female person like we are bitches female bloodhounds seems to escape your notice.

I would like to suggest much of the smell differences from mens toilets vs womens toilets is not a good proxy for proving you can sniff the sex of a human being stood normal social distance from you (even if blind!).

Extrapolation usually involves a bit of logic and also saying “might be possible” or “may be able to” not brazen “women can always tell if a person is a man by their smell” and similar absolutist, proven as a fact type statements.

Like we have funding for anything not critical. We are a broke ass country. There’s no suppression, there’s prudent prioritisation of our limited resources.

We can tell, all right.

What gets you, is that fact that we don't always say so. Because we can't always say so, Because this is a man, and the threat of male violence is often hovering in the background, when faced by any man pushing women;s boundaries.

Woman spots man. Woman says nothing but moves away as quickly as possible, but trying not to make it too obvious.

Man thinks, "Ha ha, she never noticed!"

Wrong, so so wrong.

This is not "passing". I think "intimidation" is a more apt word?

I have demonstrated that the premise that women can always tell a TW from a natal woman is false.

The case mentioned was that one women couldn't tell a woman wasn't a TW, which isn't the same thing as being able to tell that a TW isn't a woman.

You can’t always tell. No one is perfect. Not even you.

And I’m not denying that there are times you have correctly spotted a TW and then choose to say nothing. That happens. But equally, there are times you think you see a TW and are wrong.

I have demonstrated the statement that women can always tell the sex of another person (even if blind, just scratch and sniff ) is false. Always means every time, 100% perfection. Clearly we have fallen short of this. Every other month or so there’s a report of a natal woman confronted by someone mistaking her for a TW. If women could always tell, there would be zero incidents.

Both hinge on being 100% accurate at identifying all TW. That’s the commonality.

The OP was 'vast majority'. Not 100%. And I still think that's likely to be accurate.

Do you not think women being able to recognise men and vice versa might have an evolutionary advantage? For fairly obvious reasons.

Both hinge on being 100% accurate at identifying all TW. That’s the commonality.

The existence of a false positive doesn't demonstrate there are any false negatives.