When did this board become a "safe space"?

[OmiOmy]

Long time poster here, name changed.

I've recently seen this board as being described as a "space space"? This has happened a few

Wikipedia says The term safe space refers to places "intended to be free of bias, conflict, criticism, or potentially threatening actions, ideas, or conversations".

Well, going by that, it's hardly a safe space, is it? We have robust discussions here that are rarely seen on other parts of the internet.

I don't know, I feel cross and disheartened to hear the term "safe space" being ascribed to this board as if we're too fragile to cope. Ugh.

Instead I would describe this board as broadly supportive, wouldn't you?

"So you feel that you have a right to every nurses medical history to check for a gender transition before they are allowed near you? That you cannot look at any woman and allow them to be a woman. You have to know what genitals they had at birth? Okay, that's your right to have those opinions. I simply disagree."

That's fine, you can disagree. I don't have to look at medical records of every nurse. I can simply ask for a female nurse. In fact, I do ask for female nurses every single time partly for religious reasons and partly for other reasons I don't particularly want to share on the World Wide Web.

Their gait for one. I have in between long range sight and therefore without my glasses (which I wear only sometimes) I tend to be able to identify successfully who is male and who is female by the way they walk.

Then there is the proportions of their facial features. Their hands and their feet. Their skeletal structure in general. Then there is their voice. Of course, if they have had facial structure surgery, it might be more difficult.

If you can't tell, that is your own issue. I generally can tell if I am paying attention. If I am not paying attention, then I am probably not in a position where it matters.

Transitioned females on testosterone are much more successful in 'passing'.

And what is your suggestion for that scenario now that you know of it and that it also has potential cultural significance for some.

And I wouldn't expect you to. The point I'm probably failing to make is that if a trans woman passes in your eyes then how would you know?

This has gone better than usual despite it being 1 debating with many.

Good. I'm just curious about your thinking. Plus you didn't answer my question about males with beards saying they are women.

I have no objection to people 'living as they truly are', with the proviso that some people's authentic selves should never see the light of day.

Women are not props though for men to use. They can live away and I would cheer them to the echo, but sex matters and men, however they identify should stay out of single sex spaces.

How can a rape victim live as she truly is, or wants to be, if she cannot access help because of the tw in the womens help group. There are male and mixed sex groups but he can't live as his true self in those. So he has three options, possibly four if there's a trans group, but the woman has none.

Who has ever said that males should who are at risk should be made unsafe?

I think that no female should be made less safe because some males want safe spaces. Those males should have provisions that keep them safe. However, it should never be at the expense of females. Ever.

You're right, I'll come back to this as soon as I can. Mum duty calls.

ok - how about ….

I do not believe that people would put themselves through legally transitioning just to harm others.

Your reply: Oh thank goodness, this is a statement of a concrete belief where all the words mean something! But it's very obviously wrong. If sexual……

Suggestion: I acknowledge that this is what you believe however there are examples of where sexual predators have gone to extreme lengths etc

How would you tell apart a trans woman from someone who had been female all their life? I sure as hell can't.

I think you must have seen a very non representative sample of transwomen.

Here's an experiment for you: check out r/transpassing on reddit. Remember those are their good photos and that it's a lot easier to "pass" in a photo than in real life! If you still think after that experiment that it's hard to tell, you're quite unusual in that regard. Most people wouldn't think so.

When you come back mylittlesandwich would you mind answering whether you think that a male who knows they are male and that a patient knowing they were male would cause that patient distress should be respected in deceiving that patient?

To clarify. If a male who identifies as a woman knows that a patient may be distressed by them being male, and has explicitly and clearly asked that they only have a female carer, do you think that this is ok?

That the male should continue to deceive the patient?

Because I have now come to think whether someone 'passes' is irrelevant.

And I wouldn't expect you to. The point I'm probably failing to make is that if a trans woman passes in your eyes then how would you know?

I've not come across TW who I have interacted with who I didn't know was a male. (I'm not talking about public toilets etc where I barely notice anyone.) Not that many, to be sure, enough to know that they don't pass. You can ask, are you sure? Yup, absolutely.

Suggestion: I acknowledge that this is what you believe however there are examples of where sexual predators have gone to extreme lengths etc

It should have been extremely obvious I wasn't asking for your input, given that I had already suggested we not talk.

Anyway you completely missed the point about testable propositions. Nul points, go away.

I suspect I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum for opinions from you.
Some of the opinions I hold on topics discussed in here are not ones that would be well received on any number of matters.

That doesn't mean I don't want to hear what you (or anyone else) have to say.
I find it incredible anyone can make a statement, which for me is on a par with announcing the world is flat & I really, truly don't understand how anyone can believe it.

I'd love to hear a coherent argument for why I should put myself at risk just in case someone who is statistically likely to be a predator (an intact male in an enclosed supposedly single sex female space) might not be one today.
Their feelings on the matter are not relevant to why I should put my life at risk.

It doesn't mean I will agree, or think your opinion is worthy of respect.
It doesn't mean I expect you to believe my beliefs are worthy of your respect.
I will respect your attempt to put forward your point even if I don't feel you've done so.

It's more important than ever right now that people stop inventing an unhealthy level of fear over debate.

Praise was the wrong word in my original reply, I can't think of the right one just now (affirmation?) but just as I get my backside handed to me if I say something others think is ridiculous (& that happens), the same happens to anybody.

There is no elite class of Mumsnetters in any of the forums who dictate the tone.
Just a group of wildly different people, not all of them women, who enjoy robust debate & are prepared to call out ill thought out statements no matter who they come from.

In this forum, you are treated as equal.
You just have to be able to defend what you say with actual reasoning other people can follow.
That includes being told you've said something ridiculous if others believe you have.

Disagreement is not harm.
Debate & passionate discussion are essential in a healthy society.
It's intellectually good for you to re-examine your own beliefs & see why you hold them.

I hope you do keep posting.

Rejecting your opinion on one topic, is not the same as rejecting you.

Excellent post, BrokenDaughter.

But what if the nurse doesn’t pass, what if he just thinks he does?

he rocks up to perform an intimate conversation examination on a rape victim

she thinks ‘hang on, that’s a man’

what are her choices?

1. assume those in charge don’t give a shit about her preferences and have sent a man when she asked for woman, and submit to this further violation

2. assume that this man is actively trying to deceive her about his sex and submit to further violation

3. object and run the risk of being accused of transphobia or gaslighted that this person she can see is a man is really a woman

what kind of human beings would place a rape victim in this situation? Oh yes, the Scottish government

do you see how pretending sex isn’t real places women in situations where they can only lose?

And further to this, if the ‘you’ll never be able to tell’ argument worked, then all those gynaecological examinations on women under general anaesthetic back in the 80s would have been OK

except they were a violation weren’t they? And so is a man performing an intimate examination on a woman when she has asked for a woman no matter how much he looks like a woman

any time I've been to a spa it's been an individual cubicle where I cared not a jot for the gender of the person in the next room but I would say generally anyone of any gender behaving in a predatory way in a changing room or any other area should be swiftly barred.

Now that we have established the facts around the 'WiSpa' incident. Shall we now discuss the very real changing rooms that do not have the individual cubicles you have encountered. I have been in plenty of gym, and swimming pool / beach changing facilities that do not have individual cubicles. What then? Considering the pool and beach facilities are also places where I take my child, what do you think of the males who expect to change in these facilities?

And just to be sure that you understand, this has happened to the young females who swam with Lia Thomas at the start of the year. Thomas was naked there in the changing rooms with those young females and they complained and were told that they should seek counselling to cope by their university. If you listen to the accounts of those young females, they mention that it can take 15 minutes to get their competitive swimsuits on.

What about when transitioned males do NOT use the individual cubicles? Is that ok too? Young women should just take up their university's offer and get counselling to cope with seeing a male with a penis in their changing room?

Should gender identity be prioritised over sex in this situation? Or do you still consider gender to be interchangeable with sex? (I am referring to You want to call it sex I want to call it gender.)

And that is without covering the fact that those females then had to also cope with a male with male pubertal advantages that cannot be reduced competing and winning in the female sports category.

Should gender identity be prioritised over sex in sports? Or do you still consider gender to be interchangeable with sex?

So you feel that you have a right to every nurses medical history to check for a gender transition before they are allowed near you? That you cannot look at any woman and allow them to be a woman. You have to know what genitals they had at birth? Okay, that's your right to have those opinions. I simply disagree.

@Mylittlesandwich if, as you say, you want a sensible and reasoned debate then this kind of hyperbolic nonsense response is none of the above.

I do wonder why people on your side of the debate do this and then add in the emotional blackmail of what about TW being safe? it just cheapens your rhetoric and allows the view that you have no coherent or reasoned argument.

So you feel that you have a right to every nurses medical history to check for a gender transition before they are allowed near you?

To clarify my questions asked on a couple of posts that I hope that sandwich will come back later to.

No. But I certainly feel that I have the right to expect my wishes to be respected by males who identify as their interpretation of a woman who is a health care profession about to do an intimate procedure.

That you cannot look at any woman and allow them to be a woman. You have to know what genitals they had at birth?

No. But I certainly feel that if a person was male that they would have the respect to not defy my stated boundaries. Why on earth would any health professional think that this was in anyway appropriate?

Okay, that's your right to have those opinions. I simply disagree.

Do you disagree? You disagree that a female should be able to request that they have only another female do an intimate procedure and expect that the person who comes will be female and never male?

that's your right to have those opinions. I simply disagree.

You disagree that it's wrong for a female to not wish to be exposed to attempts to deceive her into an examination she would not have consented to with honesty and transparency?

Why?

You disagree that it's wrong for hcps to wish and attempt to deceive their patients into permitting intimate contact they would not have consented to?

Why?

Are hcps there to use patients to meet their needs via intimate access to their bodies? What would you think of a hcp who had such utter disdain for a patient's consent and would still attempt to gain intimate access to their body, to meet their own needs, knowing full well their patient would not consent to this and that there would be a good reason why they would not ?

Are you in favour of forcing traumatised or Autistic females, or females from some cultures, faiths, beliefs, either being forced to provide their body for the validation of a male person despite their high distress, or refusing them medical care as punishment for denying the male hcp their desired intimate access to their body so the male person's needs are met?

Why?

I'm also really concerned at this negative generalisation in this framing of TW hcps that they could never have respect for a female patient's individual needs, inclusion, diversity, best interests and consent and wish to have a relationship or trust and honesty with them - this seems to imply that any TW would wish to deceive and force unwanted access and I very much doubt that any good hcp would do this. This would seem to me really quite transphobic .

Quite. @Mylittlesandwich is saying that TW HCP's have zero integrity and utter contempt and disdain for females which is incredibly damning.

Well let’s wait and see. Maybe sandwich has not thought about this from the many different angles. Maybe they have and have an answer for our questions.

Maybe they do, I look forward to hearing them @Helleofabore .