When did this board become a "safe space"?

[OmiOmy]

Long time poster here, name changed.

I've recently seen this board as being described as a "space space"? This has happened a few

Wikipedia says The term safe space refers to places "intended to be free of bias, conflict, criticism, or potentially threatening actions, ideas, or conversations".

Well, going by that, it's hardly a safe space, is it? We have robust discussions here that are rarely seen on other parts of the internet.

I don't know, I feel cross and disheartened to hear the term "safe space" being ascribed to this board as if we're too fragile to cope. Ugh.

Instead I would describe this board as broadly supportive, wouldn't you?

Safe space is an utter bollocks term

When you say you'd see someone's sex the way anyone would are you saying that if someone presents as female to you then you accept that they're female because that surprises me.

I didn't say that. I said I define "female" in the normal way. I don't know what "presenting female" means - it sounds like something to do with baboons. I don't think that anyone wearing a wig and lipstick is female, if that's what you're getting at.

@Mylittlesandwich

And I entirely agree, but previously I have been called names and stupid etc, very personal comments. Which felt unnecessary to the debate. I don't for example feel I'm being ripped a new one at the moment because nobody has personally attacked me for my views.

Personal comments are never ok. Being called stupid or "how stupid do you have to be..." for your views is also not ok, imho.

It is an import space but it should not be safe nor an echo chamber. We do argue on here. Quite right too.

It safe only in that this is somewhere were women feel they might safe enough to rattle a 'be kind' world out of its complacency!

Personal comments are never ok. Being called stupid or "how stupid do you have to be..." for your views is also not ok, imho.

I agree…..and I’ve probably done it. Like @TastefulRainbowUnicorn i get very frustrated dealing with people who are happy with grey areas which (in my opinion) lead to harm for others. It’s not unknown for that frustration to spill into rudeness. This thread is a useful reminder to try not to. If I get ulcers I’m coming after you @OmiOmy

No they haven’t attacked just responded with utter derision.

Seriously, the Op has been nothing but polite .

TastefulRainbowUnicorn
Who do you think you are to call another poster words “kind of abstract soulless piffle”

or to declare that
“and you've used a lot of words that mean very little”

or to insult them
“whereas gender is bullshit made up by boring self-obsessed people, but whatever floats your boat I suppose.”

or the utter sarcastic derision
“Oh thank goodness, this is a statement of a concrete belief where all the words mean something! But it's very obviously wrong.”

You seriously think that this is an appropriate respectful way to respond to someone or to discuss something with someone.

I agree with this. I have no objection to being disagreed with or my opinions being disproved, but I draw the line at rudeness and that's when I'll quit the conversation, only to be accused of "running away crying to mummy" for being disagreed with. Its unfortunate because the rudeness, more often than not, halts the entire conversation.

I mean someone that looks female. If they were around you you would assume they had been female all their life. Not "a wig and some lipstick".

Indeed. There are some people on the planet who take their child into a spa where other people of the same sex are naked.

That is attempting to deflect from the issue. That a poster feels that is a questionable choice is irrelevant. The fact is, that it does happen.

And that spa's policy allowed a male to slip into the spa at eye level of a nine year old. There was an earlier incident reported of it also happening to a five or six year old as well. It was not isolated but the spa (maybe due to the laws) allowed this to happen because of a blanket 'males can be females if they say so' policy.

To be clear, because the spa's policy prioritised 'gender identity' over sex. When sex does actually matter.

Apply that to prisons, apply that to sports and apply that to female only rape crisis needs and a whole range of other instances. It is when sex matters that the distinction between 'gender' and 'sex' needs to be very clear and legislated to ensure the protections for those needing sex protections.

I didn't say it was respectful we just haven't stooped to name calling.

Should they be allowed to live as the gender they identify with with a look to fully transitioning when they're older? Probably.

I would have agreed with you, until I learned two things:

(a) how much "living as the gender they identify with" as children can encourage children to transition "fully" later on - by which I assume you mean "medically and surgically" - when they are still only young adults, from late teens onwards.

To be fair, we need to make a distinction between allowing children to be gender non-conforming (e.g. boys to play with dolls, wear frilly dresses etc) and letting them believe they actually are the other sex (or gender if that is what you prefer to call it) and that they will grow up be the other sex (or gender) and eventually have the same body as the other sex (or gender). Because if you tell them they can "transition" when they are older children will believe you.

(b) how much damage the process of medical and surgical transition will then do to the bodies of those young adults, then and for the rest of their lives. It's not like waving a magic wand and poof, everything changes with no ill effects. Actual effects include brittle bones to liver damage to colostomy to infertility to total lack of sexual function to heart failure to cancer.

Many of these "fully" transitioned (or even partially transitioned) young people are likely to have significant ill health for the rest of their lives.

Why would you allow a child to do something that will expose them to such harm later on?

@Helleofabore that wasn't all I said about the issue. I wasn't trying to deflect. I just wasn't aware that nude spas and children in nude spas were a thing. I'd certainly never take DS there. I also said that anyone behaving in a predatory fashion around children should be removed. Anyone.

There are cues that can be picked up by females on who is male and who is not.

And could you please explain why a male cannot respect a females request for a female only space or for a female only carer should be then given access to those vulnerable females?

Surely, if they understood that they have a high likelihood of causing distress, and they themselves know they are male, that they would respect those female's who have requested it.

And if they cannot respect that, why can they not respect that? Why should those decisions be prioritised and those males given respect over the needs of females?

Who do you think you are to call another poster words “kind of abstract soulless piffle” or or to declare that “and you've used a lot of words that mean very little”

I think I'm someone who just read the following:
I am female and was assigned this gender at birth. I don't believe that someone's gender is as simple as their genitals. I believe that expression of gender and who feel like you are is valid and should be seen as valid. I believe that there are shitty people in the world who do heinous things and that being transgender won't change that. I do not believe that people would put themselves through legally transitioning just to harm others.

In a context that expliclitly included women being locked up with rapists and teenagers getting their breasts chopped off.

or to insult them whereas gender is bullshit made up by boring self-obsessed people

I wouldn't have bothered interacting with her if I thought she was personally invested in her own gender identity, so I wasn't insulting her by saying gender is made up by boring self-obsessed people. However, I gather from your reaction that I may have been insulting you, so let's not chat further.

I am confused. Are you male? Why would you take your male child unless you were male?

I mean someone that looks female. If they were around you you would assume they had been female all their life. Not "a wig and some lipstick".

What does looks got to do with being female though? It's how you are born. I think that's a fundamental point we won't agree on. Males cannot become females. So when I ask for a female nurse a cervical smear test, I expect an adult human female. You using sex/gender and using female when you mean male "presenting" as a woman feels very confused.

Also, not all males who say they identify as women wear lipstick and a wig. Some even have beards - what's your take on that?

@Helleofabore like what. How would you tell apart a trans woman from someone who had been female all their life? I sure as hell can't. I don't look all that feminine. I have been described as "masc" in my time. But I can assure you I'm just as I was made. Trans women are at risk from predatory men too. Why shouldn't they be safe too?

Mylittlesandwich

Not being overtly attacked and called names should be the bare minimum. Respectful discussion should be the lowest bar. You have been polite and respectful and had scornful, sarcastic derisory replies. But this just continues to make the point that was being raised by a few of us.

BTW - I agree with a lot of your points and would love to discuss how we navigate through those complexities you recognize. But that won’t be allowed on here.

So you feel that you have a right to every nurses medical history to check for a gender transition before they are allowed near you? That you cannot look at any woman and allow them to be a woman. You have to know what genitals they had at birth? Okay, that's your right to have those opinions. I simply disagree.

@Helleofabore I am not me male but as is abundantly obvious I hadn't a freaking clue that nude spas that allow children existed never mind how one would navigate one. My point that pedophilia is abhorrent regardless of the sex or gender or gender identity of the perpetrators stands.

Sex is what you are, it is determined at conception fixed and immutable. Gender is what you do, it is fluid and can change with the hour of the day.

Men who wish to wear dresses, lipstick, heels, wigs, good for them, they are still men.

Very few men pass, convincingly, as women. If men are allowed to use or perform services that are meant to be single sex, @Mylittlesandwich you would restrict it to only those who can pass? That's transphobic. But otherwise, you have to let in all men who wish to be there.

Most transwomen don't bother with a GRC. You aren't allowed to ask if a tw has a GRC anyway. Most, around 90%, don't bother with surgery and a large number are heterosexual (or call themselves lesbians). Tw continue with male patterns of offending. In common with other men they are much more likely to commit sexual offences than women are.

Personally no I don't feel you have to pass to be allowed to be who you truly are but for the sake of the arguments brought up here I have used this example.

“Oh thank goodness, this is a statement of a concrete belief where all the words mean something! But it's very obviously wrong.”

And for the record, this is not derision. None of the other statements in that post were testable propositions about the world. But this one statement was a testable proposition that was false.

Any suggestions for how to say the same thing more tactfully would be welcome, honestly I was racking my brains to find one!

I also said that anyone behaving in a predatory fashion around children should be removed. Anyone.
I'm prepared to go out on a limb and say any male who presents himself naked in a female only space, is predatory.

I am not flouncing or running nor have I been chased off. This has gone better than usual despite it being 1 debating with many. I just have to go and collect DS and do dinner and bedtime. I'll be back later on.