When did this board become a "safe space"?

[OmiOmy]

Long time poster here, name changed.

I've recently seen this board as being described as a "space space"? This has happened a few

Wikipedia says The term safe space refers to places "intended to be free of bias, conflict, criticism, or potentially threatening actions, ideas, or conversations".

Well, going by that, it's hardly a safe space, is it? We have robust discussions here that are rarely seen on other parts of the internet.

I don't know, I feel cross and disheartened to hear the term "safe space" being ascribed to this board as if we're too fragile to cope. Ugh.

Instead I would describe this board as broadly supportive, wouldn't you?

And there have been at least 2 points that have been raised to me today that I said needed further thought and consideration on my part. But I won't be changing my mind immediately without further thought and consideration. I find it difficult to fall entirely on either side of this debate. As as has been shown there are situations I haven't considered or been aware of when things aren't black and white but that doesn't mean I want to completely throw out my support for trans rights as a whole.

So , is your definition different?

Female humans have bodies formed around the production of large gametes, regardless of whether that body produces large gametes, is producing or has produced those large gametes. No female human has a body, or had a body, that was formed around the production of small gametes.

If you believe that you have another definition for female, please tell us.

What is interesting is that except for extreme trans activists, I believe that most trans people acknowledge their sex. Yet, you are conflating sex and gender in some way. This seems to go against most reasonable trans people’s opinion as well as the majority of the general population.

What are trans rights?

What rights that everyone else has do trans people not have?

Things are black and white - humans cannot change sex, it's impossible. Spaces and services that are delineated on the basis of sex are done so for damn good reasons and it is the sex of someone that matters in those cases, not their internal feelings of gender. It's really simple. Blurring the edges and removing boundaries violates those from whom those boundaries are being removed - that is NOT a right.

I think you're nailing the conflict there.

Does supporting male TQ - well, they're not rights, are they? This is exceptions and privileges specific to TQ status - necessitate harming and excluding female humans?

Are these harms and ways of treating females really acceptable to a thinking person with care and consideration for inclusion, equality, social justice?

And isn't this extremely sexist considering that you can split the beneficiaries and the harmed into two clear sex based groups?

So far not one study has proven your belief while many have now shown the opposite?

Male pubertal advantages do not reduce to ‘female’ levels with hormone treatment.

What do you mean by ‘orientation’? Are you trying to imply that same sex attracted people are just as likely as transitioned males to cross boundaries of inappropriate behaviour? Because that would be extremely homophobic.

I have now given you three examples of males who acted inappropriately in female changing rooms or spas and you have doubled down on males should be there, but bad males should not.

You have not once shown any knowledge of safeguarding. How do you keep the males who act inappropriately out?

Do you think that the women and girls who have now been deeply affected are just collateral damage because those venues refused to safeguard females against male exposure? Because you believe that males should be able to access single sex spaces ?

What about part time ‘women’ such as Pip Bunce and Eddie Izzard? What has magically changed since they were males one day (for Izzard that is when he is doing a male role) vs being female the next day?

Do you have any thoughts? Or is it that something someone else will solve as well?

I want to completely throw out my support for trans rights as a whole.

What about the rights for women and girls? Because so far you have just told us that your definition of female seems to be outside of that of the UK government.

If you cannot define female, how can you protect females?

I would suggest that you seem to have a superficial knowledge of the issues we are discussing. If you wish to cling onto a biologically unprovable definition that seem to allow males to change sex then that is your choice.

I would suggest though that your expectation that others respect your arguments when they do seem to be founded on misinformation and belief rather than proven science is going to be disappointed.

So far you have just told all females that they must accept a male who believes they pass as a woman as a health care professional because you

a) have a mistaken belief that so many males ‘pass’ because you personally don’t seem to be able to tell.

b) seem to believe that a male saying they are a women should be fully treated as a female despite themselves knowing they are male and that would cause distress to a female requesting female only services and that they should feel fully justified and righteous in doing so. Because you think they have changed sex.

c) seem to have no thought as to how any female can tell whether a male is enjoying their ‘being treated as a woman’ compared to enjoying having power over women and trampling on their boundaries.

and d) you don’t seem to have any other thoughts as to solutions other than ‘people shouldn’t do that’.

Now I'm homophobic too. Wow I'm on a roll tonight! Does that mean I hate myself, well half of myself? I digress.

Shitty people, abhorrently shitty people shouldn't be anywhere quite frankly. But they are. Do I know how to keep the shitty people away? No I do not. But that doesn't mean everyone else has to suffer. I was once assaulted by a black man. Does that mean all black men are now banned from being within 6ft of me? No. Because that's stupid and quite frankly racist. People who break laws should be punished. People who break rules for the area there in should be barred from that area. If private clubs etc want to ban trans women altogether then that is there prerogative. I know the law seeks to make that impossible but I truthfully don't see that happening. There's too much contention around it. Before someone comes back with I'm only ok with it because I don't think it'll happen I would welcome the change but I don't see it. Chances are they are places that I wouldn't feel comfortable in either because of how I look and my preferences on who I socialise with. But I'm happy to share my spaces with trans women. Trans people are 4 times more likely to experience violent attacks including rape and sexual assault. They need the support of women, another group who suffers these horrible crimes. They aren't the enemy. You're never going to agree with me, you see me as part of the problem. That's ok, you fight for what you believe is right and I'll do the same. I've seen too many people, friends, hurt to ever fully step away from my stance. It's personal for me.

I'll be back tomorrow, this has worn me right out.

And yes I've made a couple of typing errors in there. It's late, I'm tired.

I will reply more fully tomorrow but I don't expect my arguments to be respected. If you look through my posts I've said call what I've said stupid if it's what you think just don't personally attack me.

Trans people are 4 times more likely to experience violent attacks including rape and sexual assault.

Than which other group?

Please provide statistics that prove this, otherwise it is just more misinformation.

They need the support of women, another group who suffers these horrible crimes.

Why should women solve the issues of male people?

Why should any female be put at risk of male people because they haven’t sorted a solution that didn’t involve making females vulnerable?

They have whole lobby groups and plenty of time. Why is it an issue for females to help solve?

They aren't the enemy

This is hyperbolic emotional manipulation. No one has said they are the enemy.

You're never going to agree with me, you see me as part of the problem. That's ok, you fight for what you believe is right and I'll do the same. I've seen too many people, friends, hurt to ever fully step away from my stance. It's personal for me.

Yes. It seems personal for you. I am sure it is very personal for just about every female who has engaged with you on this thread.

But you have now stated that you prioritise males over females. Own that and argue your position.

I am sorry. But saying ‘there are bad people and they are shitty’ doesn’t cover the significant safeguarding issues that there are.

The risk is males. Not any particular race or age or other description of male, but male.

Do you have any evidence at all that males who transition then commit sex crimes at the same rate as females? Yes or no?

Because if not, do you understand that by allowing males into female single sex space and to do intimate procedures on females is informally creating a class of untouchable males? Just like other historical males who were deemed as unquestionable for the abhorrent things they did to children and women.

The end point of your argument will be that no male who says some words can be excluded. Because so far women and girls have been harmed and still any male who says they are a woman can have access to women’s single sex spaces and as a health care provider, women’s bodies.

When will enough women and girls be harmed that will convince you that males should be excluded sometimes and that is perfectly reasonable and acceptable. Regardless of their gender.

Half asleep but here's a link williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

You are wasting your breath, as is any woman trying to argue this point reasonably. Men are already untouchable. Society is designed to protect them. Patriarchy learns, like capitalism, to fight feminism from the inside. No one gives up power willingly. Until women put aside their superficial differences and unite as simply women, they will never beat the system.

While we looking at accepting people’s identities as being something to be supported and believed, what about the male in Norway who identifies as disabled and uses a wheelchair despite being able and with no disability at all. Is that male to be supported? Should this male receive government support for a disability that they do not have? Should people have to treat this person as being disabled if they know they are not?

www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/23101806.issue-day-able-bodied-norwegian-identifies-disabled-woman/

What about Stephonee who is a middle aged male who identifies as being a 6 year old girl (or whatever age they are now)? Should Stephonee go to primary school? Should Stephonee be able to play sport against the under 8 year olds?

I am very happy to link you up with articles about Stephonee.

What other identities should be supported and respected? The people who have cosmetic procedures to resemble another group’s race?

What about the male who forced his way into a mother’s group and announced they were personally giving birth to a stillborn child that week? Should that male have had access to that mother’s group, and should that male have been supported in their identity as a pregnant person? At all?

I am not pointing these people out for any other reason than to ask, do you support any of these people and if not why are transitioned males any different in the level of support you give.

Where is the line for you? Is there a line?

Men are conditioned to believe that women are lesser humans - not capable of the feelings, the intellect, the emotions of men. It doesn't matter how many examples of female suffering you provide - there are none so blind

Thank you but that is from the USA. It also doesn’t have the data behind it. I shall search for the data tomorrow.

I see the article brings in the murder rate of transitioned males. I am sure all reading will be very pleased to know that no trans person has been murdered in the UK for at least a couple of years.

And yet… females are being murdered at two or more a week in the UK.

I am looking forward to seeing the data that has driven that article. Because we have also heard that in the UK misgendering by a soon to be ex-wife is considered spousal abuse. And we also know that too many females do not recognise the hatred behind the crimes against us because we are socialised not to.

I suspect that the data set will show that the wording of that article is not quite able to be taken at face value.

Besides which, I certainly acknowledge that the USA is a very different place than the UK. This board tends to be concerned about UK laws and the impacts on those living here though.

Look at the dismissive response to your last post - not even pretending to answer perfectly reasonable questions and yet feeling no shame at the lack of debate . That's not an opposing view it's entitled - pretty typical sexism

If you're having a go could you do it more plainly please I'm very tired.

Sorry my Internet is very slow - not sure this is attached to the right post. I can't see on here

Trying to reply to this with:
Look at the dismissive response to your last post - not even pretending to answer perfectly reasonable questions and yet feeling no shame at the lack of debate . That's not an opposing view it's entitled - pretty typical sexism

It's still not clear what that's in relation to. I've done my best to answer any question I've been given. Aside from those most recent as it's now after midnight and I have a small child to look after in the morning.

Telling that your first assumption is someone making a personal attack rather than a commitment to a passionate viewpoint

It's for Helleofabore not sire why that not working. Gremlins in the interwbs

Like I said it's late and I didn't fully understand what you'd said. That's why I asked you to clarify.

Go to bed then lol