How many transwomen/trans girls detransition?

[piddocktrumperiness]

Just that really. I can't quite find stats for this. If you've stumbled across something or know of this, do many young teen trans girls de transition? Do many older trans women detransition?

@Hoardasurass
Thank you for your story.
My dd is not interested in surgery now. She didn't get told about the botched operations or the lasting pain. I actually went out and found it all. She still uses a masculine name with her friends and wears mainly men's clothes but she accepts she is a female. I wish that others didn't push her to identify as a ftm. She did have counselling but she didn't want to discuss gender. We were offered a surgical pathway by one clinician 15 minutes into meeting him. I am sorry to stay I didn't support her seeing him again. It is interesting that as her mental health has improved her plans have changed. Counselling is not conversation therapy but a prudent way of dealing with trauma.
I have read some sound bites today by Stella OMalley and she seems to be saying trauma and undiagnosed neuro diversity is a major factor in trans children. I'd pay her to shout that a bit louder.

@GivenitupGerty I'm glad that you're daughter is doing so much better and that she has such a strong supportive mum.
I agree wholeheartedly with Stella. I'm an autistic gender non conforming abuse survivor who was looking for a way to both fit in and escape from my changing body and abuse. Sadly most of my group were the same. Thankfully the only treatment in the late 80s was watchful waiting otherwise I wouldn't be a mum or happy as my gender non conforming autistic self.

@Hoardasurass

happy as my gender non conforming autistic self

I want to give you a big hug (or if you don't hug, a solid nod) for this, for you and for all the other gender non conforming autistic/ND women I have had the pleasure of knowing over the years.

It breaks my heart to think a generation of wonderful women who should be happy as their gender non conforming autistic selves are instead being lead to believe that there's something broken in them, that their own selves are so far from being women, so unacceptable as women that they must really be failed men who need medical intervention to fix their female body into a facsimile of a male.

It makes me sad and furious.

TRAs claim less than 1% detransition, but how would they know? There seems to be more and more reports of young women regretting their transition, and there's bound to be even more who quietly detransition without announcing it on social media.

TRAs claim less than 1% detransition

Because gender clinics say this from a position of authority based on data from the original Dutch cohort who were asked if they regretted their gonadectomy one year on. TRAs latch onto this authority and repeat it, gender clinics don’t urge caution about such a figure because it would undermine their whole existence and voilà! Perfect storm of lies.

The reality is no one knows, but 1% is likely to be an underestimation.

It shouldn’t even matter anyway. Even if it’s “just” 1%, due to the numbers of children who have now been placed on puberty blockers around the world, this is hundreds of children who have no way back. The fact the number is likely higher means we are talking thousands of children irrevocably sterilised and rendered sexually dysfunctional for life.

TRAs don’t care about these people.

I'd imagine that there are plenty of happy adults who have had a stroke. That in itself has precisely zero evidential value on questions like -

(1) Is having a stroke a good thing?
(2) Are people who have had strokes happier than those who haven't?
(3) Would people who have had strokes been happier had they not had a stroke?

All true, but of course missing the bit about how the child can't possibly be competent to determine whether puberty blockers are a good idea until - at minimum - they have gone through puberty, allowed their brain to fully develop, and begun to explore their adult bodies and sexuality.

Why mum's net allows men's rights activists who are simply here to derail and troll any discussion of the harms of the gender industry is beyond me. These men seem to spend their days hoping to speak over women.

It's like Twitter wasn't enough for them because women left in the thousands to try to talk to each other. So here They are because sexist women hating men need to silence women.

Transgender trend have some excellent stats and detransitioners voices, and Keira bell and her case against the tavistock is a great place to understand the way vulnerable children are pushed into life long damaging surgeries and drug dependencies by organisations who are failing to provide proper safeguarding.

If you are a mum of a vulnerable girl reading this thread , protect her from any treatment other than mental health supports and read what Keira has to say about her journey. The tavistock was shut down for good reason and positive outcomes are few and far between. She's just a vulnerable girl, beautiful in who she is, she doesn't need to change her body to fit in with sexist stereotypes because they make all girls uncomfortable because they are shitty..
Lead by example show her that a natural woman doesn't need make up and dresses and heels and she can be a mechanic, plumber, poet dancer, engineer, gardener without cutting anything off.

Transgender trend shows 11 studies where followup were done. They suggest an 80% detransition rate for children.
The summary is here

www.transgendertrend.com/children-change-minds/

So on average, this study gathered data for the females over what? 3 years? Because the average age was 16 at the start for females to receive treatment and was 19.2 years when the conclusions were drawn.

I put this study again in the basket that some posters really are not interested in the outcomes for female teenaged transitioners.

Who on earth thinks tracking treatment for 3 years is long enough to dismiss detransition?

Who on earth thinks a study showing that these teenagers is robust for saying that persisting past 19 shows their treatment persists into 'adult hood'?

Someone desperately grasping at straws.

And we note that you dismiss the growing far left threats of violence, and the actual violence against women you disagree with.

It is written all over the Portland threads.

@YouSirNeighMmmm
Fully agree. No child and child is the word can consent to life changing medical procedures. I am grateful to @Hoardasurass for explaining their position. I want my dc to have all the options. She still dresses as a boy but that harms no one. Even a name doesn't worry me. This thread has been really helpful. Everyone wants a label these days. (and boy is telling, she doesn't react well to men).

In addition to what Babasghost says above, search YouTube for ‘detrans’ or ‘detransition story’ or ‘I’m detransitioning’.

Many of the earliest of the ROGD social contagion wave are coming out the other side now, these are the kids represented in that big jump in referrals of girls seen in lots of English speaking and Western and Northern European countries circa 2014/2015. More and more post their stories online all the time, it’s almost as if there is a similar social contagion of detransition - except it actually fits in with the same sort of detransition timeline seen in more classic presentations of Gender Dysphoria, that it takes around 7 years to reach the end of the transition journey and when there are no more available steps to take, some people do abandon the entire project (I believe this is a similar time frame for human dissatisfaction to set in in a variety of completely unconnected areas, eg romantic relationships and jobs).

The 1% comes from a tiny, carefully vetted cohort and the doctors involved in that vetting have said their research is not applicable to the current day gender transition policies used in other clinics (and definitely not comparable to the ‘informed consent’ generation using online businesses such as GenderGP and walk in services like Planned Parenthood in the US).

Even Dr Cass’ research team will not get the full picture from an NHS records search as there are lots of people who are transitioning through grey market and black market hormone use and overseas surgeries. As far as children and teens are concerned there will be a huge number who ‘desist’ without ever speaking to a doctor, who might show up in school records (or school counsellor services? Are they connected to a child’s school nurse record? If so that would link them to the NHS database…)

That's just the abstract. Can you link to the full article please?

In any case, as other PP have said, their main conclusion,
Most participants who started gender-affirming hormones in adolescence continued this treatment into adulthood., says nothing re the rate of detransitioners.

That would usually be seen as a breach of privacy and in fact the government had to change the law to allow it.

The only reason that trans NHS records needed a special legal exception is because of the GRA (which only applies to a small fraction of the relevant records but no way to know which ones they are and weed them out, so the legal intervention had to be made before any of the records could be looked at).

Everyone’s (anonymised) health records are available to researchers (under strict ethical protocols).

The exceptionalism that trans activists wish for trans people is astonishing - eg the anger at Cass saying that blockers must only be prescribed as part of a research trial.
This is completely normal practice elsewhere in paediatrics - pretty much every UK child with cancer is signed up to a research trial because no cancer drugs are officially licensed for paediatric oncology use.

Being part of a research program doesn’t negatively effect the individual child in any way, shape or form, it just means there is a bigger evidence base for future children with the same diagnosis.

I had a stat from about 15 years ago that said 1 in 10 regret and re transition. This was from a trans organisation. So from that source at that time I'd take it as a reliable figure.

It did seem to just count those who had at least some form of medical transition, insinuating surgery but not specifying. It was a UK source.

This is the most recent NHS paper on detransition.

It applies only to one adult Gender Identity Clinic and only to patient records between September 2017 and August 2018

This particular clinic is currently completely dysfunctional with almost no staff and a waiting list that grows and grows due to an abnormally low number of first appointments offered, so the 2017 -2018 record search is extremely unlikely to capture any of 2014 onwards ROGD group (who would mostly still be classified as paediatric by 2017 and those who were already young adults wouldn’t hsve reached the top of the dysfunctional Laurels waiting list)

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-open/article/access-to-care-and-frequency-of-detransition-among-a-cohort-discharged-by-a-uk-national-adult-gender-identity-clinic-retrospective-casenote-review/3F5AC1315A49813922AAD76D9E28F5CB

The number of detransitioners from this extremely limited retrospective case review came out at 6.9%

(small tangent) Funnily enough I happened to watch the video for "Torn" by Natalie Imbrulia last night... I'd hazard a guess that a large number of young men watching that video when it came out were in absolutely no doubt that they were watching a very attractive woman who just so happened to be dressed like a boy... or more likely, a very attractive woman who happened to be dressed in trousers, because back then women could were trousers and a hoodie or baggy jumper and it wasn;t worthy of comment because we were much more progressive about these things back then than the younger generation are now. (Not saying that is their fault).

She wasn't "dressed like a boy", she was dressed in a practical and comfortable way that can look great. Maybe I'm biased but I'd say that Imbrulia in the Torn vid is objectively a better and more attractive look that fake tan, fake breasts, fake eyelashes, fake hair, fake nails, fake arse, fake personality.

I see more dismissal in this post about the unique needs of the teenaged female transitioners.

I see this study says:.

Effects of GnRHa on pubertal development are reversible.

yet goes on to mention:

Bone mineral density may be affected (Klink, Caris, Heijboer, van, & Rotteveel, 2015; Vlot et al., 2017), and since puberty is an important period for brain development (Sisk & Zehr, 2005), puberty suppression with GnRHa might also influence brain development. There is a lack of studies investigating effects of GnRHa on the brain. One study examined executive function and concluded that GnRHa treatment had no detrimental effects on performance (Staphorsius et al., 2015). However, a longitudinal study among 25 adopted girls treated with GnRHa for early puberty reported a decrease in IQ from 100.2 ± 12.7 to 93.1 ± 10.5 with a significant decline of performance score during treatment, but it was concluded that the decrease in IQ was not clinically relevant (Mul et al., 2001).

I consider it a sleight of hand move to say 'reversible' and then hand wave away the bone density issue and brain development issue.

And now of course, we also have had since then the brain swelling issue.

All issues that impact females mostly.

Not sure you can make your lack of concern for female teenagers any more clearer livvy. There have only been a few posters in the past who have done that thankfully. And they all had a commonality.

Either way, here is a bit on the bone density issue (did you post this before 'livvy'?)

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/#S5title

Here is a study that shows female transitioners who took PBs did not ever recover their bone density as they discuss in the section on puberty blockers.

"However, Z-scores in the trans boys also showed an expected drop during GnRHa treatment. Similarly, they did not fully Bmake up their bone loss as Z-scores at age 22 were still lower than baseline (aBMD Z-score − 0.33 ± 1.12 and BMAD Z-score average − 0.033 ± 0.95), despitea small increase in absolute aBMD. One transman at age 22 had a Z-score of < −2.0."

www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/jpem-2021-0180/html

Revisiting the effect of GnRH analogue treatment on bone mineral density in young adolescents with gender dysphoria

Michael Biggs 2021

Anyone watching Leo would be rather horrified to here bone density hand waved so blithely:

www.svtplay.se/video/33358590/uppdrag-granskning/mission-investigate-trans-children-avsnitt-1

And finally. It is incontrovertible that the class action against Lupron covers many issues including ligament issues, teeth falling out as well as just the 'bone density' issues.

And... hey.... so female's lose a few IQ points. It is absolutely fine. Only girls and women .... nothing to worry about.

it just means there is a bigger evidence base for future children with the same diagnosis.

And maybe that is exactly the reason that older male trans people and doctors don't want research?

I'd say that suggests that 15 years ago when procedures were more robust AT LEAST 10% detransition. And it says nothing about how many people (subconsciously) know that they are so far down the rabbit-hole that they can't question what they have done, because literally no good can come from doubt and regret, in part because there is no going back personally, and in part because the only way transitioning can possibly work in terms of having happy trans people is to sell the transing process to more and more young people so the club and potential dating pool is that much larger.

@YouSirNeighMmmm couldn't agree more. I hardly ever wear skirts. I was once disciplined for trousers at work 1990s and my dd was expelled for wearing trousers at her all girls boarding school. Naturally that establishment wasn't a good fit. I am all for being who you are.

"That’s for two reasons – one of them is that every one of those people is a person who’s been damaged. But the second one is every one of those people is basically, you know, a huge problem to a sane world.”

Can you get out of your prescribed thinking box and think deeply about what she is saying? Or are you stuck in superficial mode?

Medical transitioning does damage bodies. I ask any poster to show us proof that medical transitioning doesn’t damage bodies. Even Dr Cass states social transitioning is not ‘nuetral’ and it can be surmised that it may also be ‘damaging’ to children and teens.

And is it a sane society that allows these treatments that are unevidenced to be used for something that is certainly not a rare incident but is a rapidly growing issue amongst young females in particular, who have not been adequately researched.

At adult level, is it sane to have the IOC decide that now any male who identifies as a woman can compete as a female, even without any treatment if the sporting body decides that is fine by them?

How is that not an issue for ‘sane society’ to deal with.

A 'sane' world does not include continuing a medical treatment that is 'not' irreversible as mantras have tried to ingrain. The 'bulge' that is the teenaged female transitioners are now being analysed and it is very clear that Puberty Blockers were NEVER appropriate treatment for them.

Yet, because all the trans activist groups had directed eyes away from that female cohort, and doubled down on their campaign of no debate, everything is transphobic, those females were indeed experimented on.

The brakes are now being applied. Why do posters who try to portray Helen's words as being horrific forget that it is very clear that the brakes are being applied all over the world on this treatment plan that was affirming only and providing females with puberty blockers.

Yet, we have a poster here who has dismissed violence against women, and is again actively minimising the harmful side effects of puberty blockers and testosterone on the female body.

Pretty clear isn't it? When you see it.

@piddocktrumperiness

I have found this small study interesting. It was posted as a 'gotcha' by someone who had not read it. In it it contains this information:

135 natal males (119 living in the female role, 12 in the male role, 4 did not report their current gender role) and 66 natal females (60 living in the male role, 5 in the female role, 1 did not report a current gender role)

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

8.88% of males and 8.33% of the females (this does not include those who did not answer the question which if the answer was to detransition would make these figures higher). And in Figure 3. 22.2% of those who socially transitioned, detransitioned.

This is in line with the West England review that was posted up thread.

Well I wouldn't be SO uncharitable to accuse them of deliberately and knowingly harming children without evidence of intent but it’s certainly seems reasonable to assume they are afraid that proper data won’t back up the current treatment model.
For some doctors (and perhaps other professionals) that data may leave them vulnerable to lawsuits.

For late transitioning males, that data could result in the dismantling of the social shield of ‘if trans children exist how can the motivation for transition be categorised as sexual?’

interesting to see the age split in the NHS Laurels data I posted above (average age of natal females: 20 average age of natal males: 36)