How many transwomen/trans girls detransition?

[piddocktrumperiness]

Just that really. I can't quite find stats for this. If you've stumbled across something or know of this, do many young teen trans girls de transition? Do many older trans women detransition?

You can read the study in The Lancet which the Pink News article links to: www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(22)00254-1/fulltext

I note you complete ignore the growing far right threats of violence.

Stonewall and Mermaids do pretty well out of the false narrative that trans people are under existential threat. They can never seem to make their minds up where the threat is coming from though. Is it the genocidal GC feminists or 85% suicide rate (or whatever the most recently inflated statistic is)? I guess they would say both. Best to cover all bases.

I note you complete ignore the growing far right threats of violence

I think it’s safe to say that everyone in the FWR forum would condemn threats of violence from the far right towards anybody. And also threats of violence from the far left which women have become more used to over recent times. It does generally go without saying that we are opposed to such threats.

Do you condemn the comments made by Helen Joyce? Does anyone on this forum?

I read a recent study which used data on military families whose health care costs are covered by the military system in the US which tentatively found that FtM detransition rates were higher than MtF detransition rates, and that detransition rates were higher for those who transitioned later in life.

There are problems with all studies trying to look into this because those who detransition often disappear from the statistics held at, say, gender clinics, so are lost to researchers using that data.

This study used the fact that US military families get their medical costs covered by one (quite good) insurance system so that those who stop claiming medications related to transitioning might have detransitioned. On that basis the detransitioning rates were pretty high. But this frame for sampling obviously has its own problems.

I’m a huge fan of Helen Joyce as she seems like one of the calmest and most rational of all the GC public figures.

Can I ask what exactly she said that needs to be looked at?

Oh oh oh can I guess @Limesodaandice

ill take spurious claims of anti semitism for £100

No. She’s entitled to her opinion.

@livvyposts it has been known for a long time that puberty blockers inevitably lead to cross sex hormones.
What you don't seem to understand (and the paper you linked to has been slated for ignoring) is that this is the problem instead of a "pause to think" these drugs lock children on a medical pathway. Yet with watchful waiting over80% desist.
I too look forward to seeing the data on all outcomes of every single person who has been through the Tavistock but unlike you I know that it will be an indictment of gender affirming care writer with the wrecked bodies and lives of countless children

it has been known for a long time that puberty blockers inevitably lead to cross sex hormones.

It has not been known for a long time, it has been speculated by those opposed to this treatment. And it's pretty wild speculation. When someone starts developing secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex to birth and they are happy with that then the most likely explanation is that they are trans, not that they were tricked by some unknown psychic force caused by taking puberty blockers.

The thinly veiled antisemitism in her work is a concern but the comments I was referring to were her stating that every trans person, whether happily transitioned or not, 'is a problem in a sane society'.

Yep!! 😅 It will be interesting to see her exact comments, I will wait to hear…!

I actually didn’t know she had made antisemitic comments and if this is true then of course it’s awful. Do you have a source for this, and for the other quote about a sane society?

You can provide Helen Joyce's comments in context livvyposts or demonstrate clearly to those reading the thread that you're misrepresenting what she said and are posting in bad faith.

Which way do you want to take this?

This isn't a thread about Helen Joyce, is it?

Perhaps livvy try sticking to the actual topic and not throw wild random names out all over the shop trying to obscufate the actual conversation?

If you want to start a thread about Helen, start a new thread about her.

This is why all the trans groups were so against the change in law that was passed so that this research could be done.

What law was this, please?

I just thought Tavistock was negligent.

I'll help livvy with the antisemitism slur:

www.womenarehuman.com/trans-activists-smear-author-of-trans-when-ideology-meets-reality/

If they were posting in good faith they could retract that particular slur but I won't hold my breath.

That's a fair comment but just for those who asked the full quote is:

“And in the meantime, while we’re trying to get through to the decision-makers, we have to try to limit the harm and that means reducing or keeping down the number of people who transition.

“That’s for two reasons – one of them is that every one of those people is a person who’s been damaged. But the second one is every one of those people is basically, you know, a huge problem to a sane world.”

How can you tell if you can't define trans? Under the trans umbrella JKR is the most trans person ever as she identifies as a man in her most recent works. Presumably gender fluid people transition and detransition on a second by second basis? And claiming 'transition' means medical intervention is just hateful transphobia according to those who want to self identify into anywhere they want to exert their power. The whole thing is impossible to measure, which I suspect is the point.

You haven't provided the context of Helen Joyce's quote livvyposts. You're posting dishonestly.

The idea that social changes and global events do not happen organically but are manipulated by shaodowy figures behind the scenes with secret and horrifying agendas - in this case the implementation of trans-humanism - is an antisemitic analysis. It is the claim that has been made against Jewish people for centurues and it is central to Joyce's position. The fact that she cited two Jewish billionaires as being behind the trans conspiracy based on research from a more open antisemite Jenneifer Bilek really only adds to this problem with her position.

But I'll shut up about her now and pay heed to the people complaining of derailing.

The anti semitism is smearing based on Joyce naming some trans billionaires who also happen to be Jewish.

The other comment wasn’t about actual trans people it was about society having to accommodate a group of people who, via medical transition, no longer fit in the usual M/F provisions (prisons, hospital wards etc). It’s not as simple as ‘use birth sex’ v ‘use chosen gender’, because there are people who identify as non-binary, and people who have made changes to their bodies that will make it hard to blend in in the correct single sex spaces and that may make them additionally vulnerable (eg a male with silicone breast implants in a male prison). There are also detrans people with mixed secondary/primary characteristics and trans people who have become disenchanted with their transition but feel they have nothing to transition ‘back’ to (eg Corinna Cohn who transitioned as an older teen and thus has never ‘lived as a man’, only as a boy and as an MtF transsexual).
As we do not really know the long term effects of total pubertal blockade yet, there is the potential for a future of very damaged adults (eg early onset osteoporosis).
We can’t use the precocious puberty cohort as an indicator because they only had temporary pubertal blockade, not complete pubertal blockade, followed by artificially induced cross sex secondary characteristics (there is evidence of bone density issues eg premature toothloss in the precocious puberty cohort).

Joyce was talking about how society will have to make additional accommodations for transitioned and detrans people that would not be necessary in a society where medical and surgical transition didn’t exist.
The more people who transition/transition & detransition, the more special accommodations and costs societies will have to absorb.

Women are being raped by penispeople in Women’s prisons, that is not a ‘sane society’, so clearly other sorts of special accommodations will have to be designed and built.

I'm not typing the whole thing out, people can watch it here: twitter.com/transscribe/status/1532675450589396993

The idea that social changes and global events do not happen organically but are manipulated by shaodowy figures behind the scenes with secret and horrifying agendas - in this case the implementation of trans-humanism - is an antisemitic analysis. It is the claim that has been made against Jewish people for centurues and it is central to Joyce's position. The fact that she cited two Jewish billionaires as being behind the trans conspiracy based on research from a more open antisemite Jenneifer Bilek really only adds to this problem with her position.

In the context of what Helen Joyce wrote, this is just garbage. Try harder. But to be honest the materials you're working with are so poor I imagine that even clever people would struggle.