National Autistic Society - yikes

[NotPurpleAnymore]

There's a lot of discussion about autistic people saying they identify as trans.

Here is an article currently being promoted on Twitter by the NAS twitter.com/Autism/status/1588508665308667905?t=RsbiDJqsNfDKGq9u0fCwig&s=19

To my mind, it seems to be celebrating top surgery and conflating this woman's late autism diagnosis with her decision that she is non binary.

Lots of talk about 'being seen'.

Does this make anyone else feel very uncomfortable? I think the unquestioning nature of the article makes it irresponsible.

It's also relevant to point out that wanting to have your voice heard and not be spoken for comes from a different place than the TRA thing of wanting to separate children from their parents, even if the two issues may wind unhelpfully together when it comes to this area. If you intend to speak for people who need others (usually parents) to communicate so that you can profess your own take on the autistic experience as “more valid” I’m afraid I’m going to keep saying that you are not representative of most autistics that your belief further disadvantages vulnerable people. You are promoting ideas about what it is to be autistic that are no more valid than the idea that young teen autistic girls are feeling as they do because they are born in the wrong body. Your experience is valid, your voice should of course be heard but the idea that you can talk for significantly impacted autistic people in any way that is more acute than a nt person with reasonable levels of empathy is ridiculous.

Has it not occurred to you that YOUR beliefs further disadvantage vulnerable people? You don't even recognise the vulnerability of autistic women like me.

At no point have I said that I'm speaking for autistic people who cannot advocate for themselves - I actually wrote that we shouldn't be lumped together!

Do you have any idea what it's like to come onto a thread and have people making sweeping statements about autism and when you try to explain where some of the ideas come from you just get a poster saying your experiences and knowledge are irrelevant? Do you have any idea how invalidated I've been all my life and you just add to it?

I'm not actually very good at advocating for myself but I have to do my best as there is no on who gives a shit about people like me. There's loads of us autistic women shut out by gender ideology from our own groups, many of us who could easily have fallen prey to the TRA narrative if we'd been younger, and even on a largely GC forum our experiences aren't welcome.

As is said Your experience is valid, your voice should of course be heard but the idea that you can talk for significantly impacted autistic people in any way that is more acute than a nt person with reasonable levels of empathy is ridiculous.

The discussion is about young autistic females transitioning because they would rather be young males, presumably young autistic males.

But I didn't say I was speaking for those people.
I was simply responding to some of the things that had been posted on the thread. I don't understand why you took issue with my first post.

I think you explained why you didn’t want people to speak for you and I responded by saying I didn’t think late diagnosed or self diagnosed people should be speaking for significantly impaired individuals?

@ProtectAndTerf I have every respect for your experience, but you cannot impose on mine as a parent. And you cannot speak for children with severe strike significant impairments.

You see I would strongly disagree with these statements:
It's hard enough to speak up for yourself without having to also speak over someone with more clout who's getting it wrong. so you are saying that parents ‘get it wrong’ about their own kids and about autism?
However when we are talking about safeguarding children of course parents should be involved. Just like with neurotypical children. so parents can only speak about safeguarding?

You seem to be saying that parents of autistic kids know nothing about autism, cannot speak about it, unless it is specifically safeguarding and even then only as far as any other parent would talk about their child, autism or not.

I have been told many ‘wrong’ things by autistic adults such as my child’s language delay should be called ‘non speaking’. And that it isn’t his autism at all, but apraxia. This is not true of DS! It is his autism, it is not apraxia, it isn’t non speaking, it’s non understanding. I have has autistic adults say that there are best placed to understand my DS, more than me, and to take their advice. Very like trans gender ideology.

I as a parent of an autistic child have very valid things to say about autism, and I respectfully would want my space to do so.

However I don’t want to derail this thread by getting into that, and I find it very tiring and an unnecessary ‘battle’ when really we should be working together. But specifically for this thread, I had an autistic DS who has many developmental delays that means that trans gender ideologies would be quite harmful.

Many autistic children have very limited understanding of language, and yet relationship education is going to throw all kinds of trans gender terminology such as non binary at these children. It’s wrong on so many levels.

The tendency at the moment I have noticed is to say that things like delays aren't really autism, they are things that are additional to autism.

While it may be true that there is more than one thing going on with an individual, I think the reality is that we don't have a great understanding of autism, and it's very likely that it is in fact more than one thing, maybe with different causes, which gets put under that banner.

It may well be that delays are in fact what autism is for some people, rather than something additional.

I was trying to explain where the idea that autistic people should speak for themselves or not have to go along with carers (/parents) narratives about them came from. In reply to something said by another poster linking it to the way TRAs try to separate children from parents. I was trying to explain that it was coming from a different place (although could be fed into the TRA narrative unhelpfully).

You're massively twisting my words. I've never said parents of autistic children don't know anything about autism. Although you are demonstrating my point that you read into things or interpret things weirdly in an unhelpful way.

I don't understand why my post has led to such a response, especially as I was just trying to provide some clarity and not actually disagreeing with anything either you or Itisbetter posted. I was just trying to explain why autistic people can have genuine reasons for not wanting others to speak for them, rather than it being some sinister plot to separate children and parents. (Although, of course it could be hijacked for this.) I just thought it was useful for posters to know that it has a history that isn't anything to do with trans stuff. Like many other good ideas it's got hijacked.

When I mentioned the safeguarding thing what I meant was that obviously parents have a huge safeguarding role but that's the same for any child, autistic or not, and we are all here worried about children being exposed to trans ideology. But that is a different thing from an autistic young person who's experiences of autism might not be well understood by neurotypical parents and who does need their own voice. It's extremely concerning and upsetting that this important thing of letting autistic people speak for themselves and understanding their POV is being conflated with the trans movement's move to separate children from their parents safety.

The trans identifying females I'm aware of seem to be closer to my autistic presentation than your son's (from what you've said, apologies if I've misunderstood). So I did think these things were relevant. But I agree about the issue of language development and trans terms utterly confusing things, it's appalling.

Although you are demonstrating my point that you read into things or interpret things weirdly in an unhelpful way. I really don’t think this is helpful. You did explicitly say that parents over talk, say the wrong thing, and were basically good for safeguarding and did not say they had a valid opinion on autism.

If I were not able to talk here about my DS, trans gender issues and autism as a parent then his voice would not be heard from any adult autistics. It is pretty vital that I speak without being diluted.

This is exactly how ‘significant’ autism is being pushed out and has no voice at all. Pushed out by unfortunately other autistic adults.

The trans identifying females I'm aware of seem to be closer to my autistic presentation than your son's hmmm in some ways.
The trans identifying teenage girls aren’t (on the whole) self identifying and demonstrably aren’t late diagnosed women looking for answers as to why their lives have been shaped as they are.
They are female and can usually communicate without much support, but no I wouldn’t say they are particularly “the same”.

Yet again the discussion is hijacker’s by this narrative that self identifying and late diagnosed autistics voices are able to provide greater insight into autistic children’s experience.
The demand to be “recognised” as having superior understanding is all.

What if they were wrong to merge the two diagnosis?
What if autism and Asperger’s are not different presentations of the same condition?
What then?

Then what’s actually happening is the word “autism” has been appropriated by another group, who have their own vulnerabilities but aren’t the most vulnerable people in the room, who’s needs have some crossover but are on the whole very different, who’s presence disadvantages (because they are bigger better talkers) and makes the safe spaces you have built painstakingly over decades a place where you and your families may be attacked for wrong thinking and frankly are fairly scary.

The parallels may be unpleasant to acknowledge but I’m afraid are fairly obvious.
Rather than putting so much effort into minimising them it would IMO be far more productive to think about how this has panned out, how it could or couldn’t be fixed and what is standing in the way of that.
Possibly if you find yourself too deep within the situation it might help to think about who are the winners and who are the losers.

The initial discussion was in response to the statement the SEND community are not questioning, debating or even raising issues about this. Which is extremely worrying when these are the some of the most vulnerable kids around.

There is criticism in some posts here of people diagnosed asd as adults. When I was a child, it was believed that females couldn't have autism, so I couldn't have been diagnosed then. I am significantly impaired by it and have been my whole life to to extent I have never been able to work so I find it upsetting when it is implied that diagnosis as an adult doesn't count in some way.

My contribution to this discussion is that I have regularly wanted my breasts removed because I like straight lines and not sticky out bits.
I never wanted to grow up or have sex.
Also I have never coped with the changes puberty brought because to me the original is the default and Right. I don't remember being a baby so being a child felt right and I thought becoming a teenager meant I would literally be a different person. Concrete thinking also meant that even in my forties, if I wore mens clothes, I worried that this meant I must be trans.
I am not trans. I do not want an adult body with secondary sexual characteristics. I have always felt neutral. If you say that to anyone now, they suggest that perhaps you have always been nonbinary. No, I have always been autistic.

it is implied that diagnosis as an adult doesn't count in some way. diagnosis as an adult implies that your autism has a more subtle presentation than someone who was diagnosed as a child particularly if they are older. I’m not sure why you’ve taken that to mean you don’t count?

When I was a child, it was believed that females couldn't have autism I don’t believe this has ever been the case. My understanding was there were (are? I don’t know) 3 to 4 times as many boys diagnosed but there were female autistics.

From what I understand in the 70s when I was a child it was thought girls couldn't be autistic. You were just labelled as weird and difficult. I didn't say it meant I didn't count I said it was implied that diagnosis as an adult didn't count in some way.
The rest of my post is trying to explain how an autistic mind could be confused about sex and trans issues.

Ah sorry I read it somewhere but looks like I was wrong then.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. This sounds awful.

I don’t understand why anyone self IDs in this way with a condition - is it a “thing” nowadays? Do people self ID as something that they genuinely think they are but don’t want to seek a formal diagnosis or is it people self IDing as something they want to be but clearly aren’t (as with the T)? Why would they do this? The just want a label?

The man you describe sounds as if he shouldn’t be working with children or families.

The process of diagnosis is very long and waiting times are years not weeks or months and not available for adults easily. Many resort to going private and many more decide that they can clearly see from criteria on line that they are autistic. Some are correct and some are looking for a way forward through their lives and believe self diagnosis helps them.

Basically expect lots more of this bs as he believes that autism should be included under the lgbtq++++++ baner too
Well they can fuck right off with that. I think someone posted about women with PCOS being trans the other day too. It’s just all such total shit isn’t it? You’d laugh if it didn’t also mean the vulnerable (really vulnerable not just feelings hurt vulnerable) people who were already struggling we’re losing support left right and centre.

itisbetter, I couldn’t agree more !

@Itisbetter I can definitely confirm that in atleast some medical settings that it was believed that you couldn't have asd as a female. I know this because I have seen it on my own medical records from childhood! I was originally diagnosed as a pre teen by my therapist (though not told) who was overruled by a superior who literally scored out the diagnosis and wrote girls can't have autism must be borderline personality disorder 🤬 This misdiagnosis caused me decades of pain and wasted therapy trying to "fix" me. I only got an official diagnosis in my 30s because the team diagnosing my ds picked it up in me (apparently I scream "classic autism" to anyone trained to look for it) and were very insistent that I speak to their adult team, which I did and is where my previously dismissed diagnosis came to light.
I was told by the Dr's that many autistic women and girls were misdiagnosed as having BPD as at the time it was commonly believed that girls/women couldn't be autistic.
@ProtectAndTerf I'm sorry to say that you are falling into the trap of the self IDing and tra contingent by assuming that you can speak for anyone other than yourself or your personal experience. We all have our own history, life experiences and ways in which we struggle with the nt world, however you and I are fortunate enough to be able to talk for ourselves (to a lesser or greater extent) my ds can't and probably never will he needs me to talk for him.
You talk about other people talking over you and getting it wrong but that is exactly what you are doing to my son and those like him along with the most severely affected by asd. You have no idea what it's like to see your child going through what you did only it being 1000 times worse for them and trying to get help only to be told that I can't/shouldn't talk for him or that my "attitude" is the problem by some twat who self IDs as autistic or someone who is minimally affected and has no clue what life is like for those who are severely affected.
You may not realise this but the line you are pushing harms children and adults like my ds and in your quest for self validation you are invalidating the lives and experience of everyone less fortunate than yourself.

@Itisbetter I hadn't heard about pcos being a form of trans but I have seen it described as being "intersexed" which left me speechless. So has pcos been upgraded (so to speak) or have we just found another massive inconsistency in the dogma.

Whilst I’m sure that true for many, it isn’t true for all. I have a neighbour whose DD wasn’t diagnosed to mid 20s but there were lots of signs and difficulties present as a child/teen they just weren’t attributed to autism. The DD now doesn’t leave the house, is barely verbal, only communicates with her parents, can’t cope with any change, huge sensory difficulties, exhausted, meltdowns, displays VCB regularly… There’s nothing subtle about her presentation.

I feel really let down by the NAS. If anyone should know that teenage girls with autism struggle with the physical changes of puberty, and the increased social demands that accompany puberty, simply because you look older, it should be the NAS.

Instead, they stand by, as autistic teens and young adults are sold surgery as if it will solve everything. And sold is the operative word here. The autistic demographic is a demographic that is hugely underemployed- either totally unemployed, or in jobs that don't match their qualifications. And yet they are being encouraged to stake their dreams and hopes on expensive, elective surgery. These sums that are crowdfunded to go straight to surgeons, could be better invested in their futures. Think how many hours of specialised support hours you could get here for the cost of a mastectomy in America.

It's exploitation.

Did the early signs and symptoms include double incontinance, smearing, biting, head banging, special nursery/primary/secondary/college, was she unable to communicate verbally till school age or beyond, did she and will she always need feeding/washing?