Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

National Autistic Society - yikes

202 replies

NotPurpleAnymore · 04/11/2022 12:58

There's a lot of discussion about autistic people saying they identify as trans.

Here is an article currently being promoted on Twitter by the NAS twitter.com/Autism/status/1588508665308667905?t=RsbiDJqsNfDKGq9u0fCwig&s=19

To my mind, it seems to be celebrating top surgery and conflating this woman's late autism diagnosis with her decision that she is non binary.

Lots of talk about 'being seen'.

Does this make anyone else feel very uncomfortable? I think the unquestioning nature of the article makes it irresponsible.

OP posts:
BatCheeseIsFine · 16/11/2022 09:55

I’m old enough to remember when hardly anyone had even heard of autism and those who were diagnosed were quite severely impaired. I get that more people being diagnosed can be helpful for them and isn’t a bad thing, but I am worried now about how it’s become part of identity politics and something people can just announce they are and then demand to be treated as experts. There are strong parallels with trans ideology, not at the more severe and medically diagnosed end of the spectrum, but with all the people who seek out a list of conditions - I know several of these people. One of them now lists autistic, adhd, trans (was NB now a trans man), and “disabled” (though has not made clear how) and just adds another one every time they get bored as far as I can tell.

On top of that, we know young people who have medically diagnosed autism are more likely to fall prey to gender ideology - and people like the above are encouraging them. It’s a horrendous mess.

I’ve never understood why anyone can set themselves up as an expert on something and offer “training” and companies and organisations just lap it up and pay £££££ for it. Claiming you have a condition or even actually having it doesn’t necessarily make you an expert on it.

Toomanysquishmallows · 16/11/2022 11:06

BatCheeseisfine , I completely agree , the amount of random individuals offering training is worrying.

FemaleAndLearning · 16/11/2022 21:46

WhatWouldBarbaraCastleDo · 15/11/2022 14:39

Yes - very much agree.
On the occasions that a parent asks for advice in certain autism/mental health FB support groups after a child suddenly announces their trans identity, many other parents rush in to congratulate them on having a trans child living their authentic life, tell them the importance of embracing the child's new identity/using their new pronouns etc etc.
Sometimes, if I sense any unease in the original parent's post, I will privately message to recommend that they read widely, look at other websites etc etc. I have had some very grateful replies in response from people who instinctively know it doesn't make sense but are aware they will be deemed a bad person if they query what has happened to their child.
I have seen other people raise questions (politely) on the main threads in some of these FB support groups and get chucked out of the group after people shout them down.

I had so many posts deleted when trying to give an alternative to affirmative.the worst group on Facebook was Parents of autistic girls. I had to leave in the end.

Can't remember if this has been posted but Transgender Trend have done a comprehensive report on Autism and GI. Compare this to the webinar that Mermaids did for Sunshine Support (didn't know they weren't a charity, thanks previous ouster) where they didn't even tailor the webinar to special needs.
www.transgendertrend.com/autism-gender-identity-introduction/

FemaleAndLearning · 16/11/2022 21:48

Bananasinpyjamas21 · 14/11/2022 01:25

@FemaleAndLearning there has been a weird repression of transgender and autism. I don’t know of any charity that has taken up, commented on or even discussed the CASS report with such high numbers of autistic kids transitioning. I feel deeply concerned about this.

Totally agree, but people are just ignoring the Cass Review. Fingers in the ears singling la la la la.

FemaleAndLearning · 16/11/2022 21:54

Clymene · 14/11/2022 08:15

That's interesting @Schlaar.

@FemaleAndLearning - I got my post deleted on the Sunshine Support Facebook page when they were pushing mermaids. Incidentally, Sunshine Support isn't a charity.

Me and you both. I also got banned from making any comments on any post. I said nothing inflammatory but as soon as I mentioned Transgender Trend it was game over. One parent said they were transphobic, it's even in their name (trend). So I put the graph in that shows it is a trend! But still I was a transphobe, bigot. I got asked what would you do if your own child was trans. I told them my child wouldn't be trans because of biology.

The National Autistic Society are going to look bad when all this hits the fan. I remember complaining about something else they did and had managed to slip gender in but to no avail.

The general population and the SEND community do seem very captured. I hear people say things like well he is thinking he is a woman and there is no harm in that.
I'm not sure our message is hitting home.

Ericaequites · 17/11/2022 00:10

@Sickoffamilydrama You are a great mum who advocates for her daughter so her needs will be better met.
I’m a lesbian natal female wasn’t diagnosed with autism until I was 40. Autism is not a superpower. It’s like planning a vacation to Italy and arriving in Detroit. Although I have a university degree, my lack of social skills has closed many doors and limited my choices. I still often feel like an alien living in a human world.

Bananasinpyjamas21 · 17/11/2022 02:32

@FemaleAndLearning I totally agree the SEND community are not questioning, debating or even raising issues about this. Which is extremely worrying when these are the some of the most vulnerable kids around. Some people are just side stepping it I think.

Toomanysquishmallows · 17/11/2022 05:55

FemaleandLeaning , I couldn’t agree more , I have a 13 year old daughter with autism, and the only support group I’m in is American.My daughter was diagnosed at two , so she doesn’t “ mask and copy”, and I found the way the trans issues trumped every other issue very difficult to deal with.

Bananasinpyjamas21 · 17/11/2022 22:45

@Toomanysquishmallows same here, my DS wouldn’t have a clue how to mask, he hasn’t the social strategy and concept to do this. It is the dominating adult/teenage autistic experience which is being centred here around a difference experience entirely. Again it is teenagers/adults on social media sharing ideas and ideologies but this being taken as fact (in this case that autism = masking)

Shelefttheweb · 18/11/2022 20:37

No masking here either. We also don’t subscribe to the ‘superpower’ narrative. You don’t need something to compensate you for being autistic or adhd or dyslexic or whatever - you are fine as you are.

Itisbetter · 18/11/2022 20:56

I totally agree the SEND community are not questioning, debating or even raising issues about this. Which is extremely worrying when these are the some of the most vulnerable kids around. and how do we do that? Imagine if you struggle to access education, health, respite, benefits, exercise, leisure or community activities. Imagine if there is one support group in your area and several of the stalwarts have children who have transitioned or are “questioning” their gender. HOW exactly do you raise concerns? The group I belong to posted a poster about sensory issues on their FB page last week. If you clicked on it you were taken to the authors FBpage which showed her shirtless having had a double mastectomy in the hopes of happiness which she has achieved through surgery etc. How do raise concerns? With who? We already didn’t “fit” because our autistic child was significantly impaired and the group was predominantly less impacted individuals.
Yes there are huge similarities with the whole trans kerfuffle but it’s within as well as similar.

Shelefttheweb · 18/11/2022 21:32

Yes there are huge similarities with the whole trans kerfuffle but it’s within as well as similar.

As I said before, I think many of them are the same people (TRAs and #actuallyautistic advocates).

I had a short conversation with a friend’s autistic son yesterday. Totally unrelated to trans but he had an idea set in his mind from which he drew a long series of conclusions. He was totally wrong but there was absolutely no arguing with him. Even with the facts laid before him he was not flexible enough to consider a different approach. It just struck me how similar this was to many TRAs.

Itisbetter · 18/11/2022 22:02

he was not flexible enough to consider a different approach this is a commonly held take on autism. It’s not really how most autistics I know behave. I certainly don’t think that autistic people are pushing this.

Bananasinpyjamas21 · 19/11/2022 00:55

@Itisbetter I could have written your post myself. I guess I should have said more specifically the centers of power in the SEND community, which is often like you have said dominated by those probably with more time and energy.
We already didn’t “fit” because our autistic child was significantly impaired and the group was predominantly less impacted individuals. We don’t fit either, and I think I want to reclaim the word ‘severe’!

Bananasinpyjamas21 · 19/11/2022 00:59

@Itisbetter I do sometimes wonder, the autistic trans people I see on social media, don’t look anything like DS, I wonder what is at the heart of this trans / autism cross over, where it comes from, who is pushing it, and why?
And is this different from the younger autistic kids, often girls, who transition such as shown in the CASS report?

MangyInseam · 19/11/2022 02:52

Shelefttheweb · 18/11/2022 20:37

No masking here either. We also don’t subscribe to the ‘superpower’ narrative. You don’t need something to compensate you for being autistic or adhd or dyslexic or whatever - you are fine as you are.

There is also this idea now that masking is something that is totally bad, and no one who isn't autistic never does it.

The reality is that everyone does to some degree, and for most people it can sometimes be uncomfortable. It's also something that is probably socially necessary at some level.

The fact is that many people don't have a ton of insight into their own self, and that applies to autistic people as well. Having a diagnosis of any kind does not automatically make you an expert in that condition, or even in what it is like to be a person with that condition, because not everyone is the same.

BatCheeseIsFine · 19/11/2022 10:32

Yes “masking” has always raised questions for me. I mask a lot, and find it exhausting, and imo that’s because I’m a shy, awkward introvert. I may have some asd traits but also don’t tick the boxes at all in various ways and my gp thinks my issues are more to do with attachment because of abusive and dysfunctional childhood. Not everything that’s a bit autism-like is necessarily autism, and masking in particular. When I did sociology a-level there was interesting stuff about how people adjust their presentation, language etc for different situations - Of course we do. It would be weird if people weren’t concealing their inner thoughts or compulsive or odd habits in school, work meetings etc.

Bananasinpyjamas21 · 19/11/2022 13:10

I was very shy and needed to learn social skills to be in school, work, and I still need a lot of time on my own otherwise I feel exhausted. It might be termed ‘masking’. I quite like having those social skills though, it’s really handy and I also think relationships are meeting in the middle, there is not really a ‘one true me’.

There is also a specific ‘masking’ which is a term used to describe for kids at school who hold it together but find school stressful and then come home and let it all out. That it not just specific to autism.

Neither of these are the experience of DS who is autistic, and I do feel it’s become a dominant blanket term for autistic experience which is not true for a lot of autistic kids. It is because it is talked about a lot on social media. In seems what is dominant in social media, goes everywhere.

Itisbetter · 19/11/2022 18:21

”Masking” IMO is a polite way of excusing school staff of not noticing that they’ve upset your child. I’ve spent A LOT of time observing teachers/TAs/support workers interacting with disabled children, and I think on the whole they miss fairly obvious behaviour communication and often dismiss verbal communication. The idea of masking “she’s fine at school” is a fabulous get out clause. I can see when ds is getting stressed. Missing queues in a large class without support might be excusable but with a TA who knows the child? I think it’s neglect rather than masking.

As for the exhaustion of putting on your “company face”? I think that’s universal experience but autistics often have a bigger gap and less tools to bridge it, so obviously will feel more fatigued.

Itisbetter · 19/11/2022 18:22

@Bananasinpyjamas21 i have it on good authority that “significant” is the new “severe”🤣

ProtectAndTerf · 19/11/2022 19:41

As a late diagnosed autistic adult female this thread is hitting some nerves.

Firstly, re. wanting to control people's behaviour - the reason autistic people like routine, or predictable/expected behaviour in others, is because then they don't have to use up very limited energy and brainpower working out how to deal with the unexpected. Using up this extra energy can be the thing that tips one into meltdown/shutdown, which I can only describe as a sort of all over deep psychic (and sort of physical) pain that completely overwhelms. Of course we want to avoid this. So someone behaving unpredictability is infuriating when they could have just behaved in the expected way!

Secondly, re. not wanting parents involved. This is a complex thing and I understand there are strong feelings on both sides. But it comes from not wanting to have people speak FOR you, often inaccurately or with judgement or odd interpretations of your behaviour. It's hard enough to speak up for yourself without having to also speak over someone with more clout who's getting it wrong. There is obviously a big issue here around the way that "autism" covers a huge range of difficulties and it's bonkers to lump in people like myself (with completely different needs) with someone who does actually need someone to advocate for them.

I can see why PPs might see this as an extension of the TRA narrative of separating children from their parents, but it's been around a lot longer and comes from a different root. Additionally it tends to crop up between autistic adults and parents of autistic children. There's already an issue with people thinking of autism as a childhood thing, whilst adults are left adrift without support or services so obviously do not want these parents speaking for them (us). As well as how deeply painful it is to be considered difficult or a burden, which is obviously how it is for such parents.
So I'd be worried about throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this one - autistic people do need to be able to speak for themselves where possible and not be harmed by others' misinterpretations. However when we are talking about safeguarding children of course parents should be involved. Just like with neurotypical children.

Thirdly, the "autism as a gift" idea. I can actually see where this is coming from. I'm in an online group for autistic women and many of us have this experience... We are thoughtful, try to be kind to others, sensitive, and often empathetic at an instinctive/feeling level, if not cognitively. Also a strong sense of justice and fairness. Not mercenary. It strikes me the world would be a much nicer place if everyone was like this! But of course it's disabling if you're out of step with the majority!

Finally I'd just like to say that there are many gender critical autistic women (I don't know about men). But we hide out together because mainstream groups are captured.

Oh, and finally finally (!) I'd like to say I am utterly sick of TRA autistic males who somehow have lots of support around them to do the boring bits of life so they get to have all the fun, whilst autistic females struggle to cope because we have to do real life. It makes me think of the way men can have children and a high flying career because there's a woman at home taking care of everything... Autistic women seem to do their own household and organisational stuff whilst the males seem much more likely to have someone else taking care of all that. I'd love to know if there's any research/stats on this...

Itisbetter · 19/11/2022 20:03

But it comes from not wanting to have people speak FOR you, often inaccurately or with judgement or odd interpretations of your behaviour. It's hard enough to speak up for yourself without having to also speak over someone with more clout who's getting it wrong.
yup, except I would say that’s EXACTLY what some self diagnosed and some late diagnosed (so presumably able to “pass”) adults do to a large proportion (probably the majority) of autistic people who need their parents to communicate.

I don’t actually want to get into this discussion as it will just become a back and forth about how asd is a spectrum and how everyone is different. Blah blah. The discussion about autistic female children and their increased numbers is important, MORE important.

Itisbetter · 19/11/2022 20:06

Sorry typo

The discussion about autistic female children identifying as male and their increased numbers is important, MORE important.

ProtectAndTerf · 19/11/2022 20:45

But it is relevant, Itisbetter.
I'm late diagnosed but that didn't mean I passed as NT. In hindsight it's astounding no one picked up on me being autistic. It led to all sorts of horrible experiences that also made me very aware of the patriarchy - I found feminism on my way to understanding why I was different!

Anyway, as a a teen and young adult I remember pondering a lot that I didn't FEEL like a woman. And pondering what that meant. If I'd been fed the TRA narrative it could have been a disaster. So yes, my experiences do actually matter to the discussion at hand. Furthermore having been an extremely vulnerable woman at points (criminal "justice" system, NHS etc) it's a bit much to have these experiences involving sexism totally ignored by fellow feminists.

It's also relevant to point out that wanting to have your voice heard and not be spoken for comes from a different place than the TRA thing of wanting to separate children from their parents, even if the two issues may wind unhelpfully together when it comes to this area. It's important to understand that the idea of the autistic person speaking for themselves has a longer history and different aims, to understand how/why that might unwittingly be a tool for TRAs.

MangyInseam · 19/11/2022 21:00

Everyone wants to have their voice heard, and especially as they become adults. Most young people at times feel that they aren't heard, it's an almost universal teen experience I think.

That does not and never has meant that other people will always agree with your assessment, or even that you will always be right with regards to your own needs and experiences. I'm sure we can all think of examples where people get their self-assessments completely wrong, and probably we've all had that experience ourselves.