Do men recognise the sex of a stranger as well as women?

[SantaCarlaCalifornia]

I just saw an interesting thread on Twitter by Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles) and she vocalised something I've wondered about for a while.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1585706250989281280

From the middle of the thread -

So when we see men telling women that they should treat This Transwoman as if they were female, are they even seeing the same picture as us? When This Transwoman argues they “pass” and they clearly don’t, is this, ironically, a very male blind spot?

I think there's definitely something in it, I've spotted TW on TV many times when it's not been mentioned and my husband has mostly missed it. Something just tickles my brain and I can't explain it. I wouldn't say you can always tell, but there's definitely something that gives it away most of the time.

They aren't blind. They know full well.
They are just deliberately gaslighting us.

that thread is great
My DH talked about this with his pals & the gist of the conversation was they get distracted by boobs 🙄 but as soon as a *man stands by a woman (or is aggressive which I found interesting) the scales fall very quickly.

(3 of them have safeguarding roles & are very clear on which statistical group people belong in)

I think men only notice other people (both sexes) if they are pretty or alpha/aggressive at first glance.

Women determine threat at first glance (so usually male), then nuance the threat downwards from red alert, amber, yellow, oh...I got that wrong, I can take him on any day of the week

I remember DH being very surprised when watching The Crying Game (obviously, Jaye Davidson isn't trans but the character Dil would probably be described as such now)

I think there is really a lot of variation on this among men.

But to make a large generalization, I think there are possibly more men than women who do not notice certain things about people, unless something makes them stop and pay attention.

I wonder if it's related to the findings of the very depressing research on men viewing women as objects, and also as disconnected body parts. Does anyone else remember reading abou that? it was based on what brain areas activate when men are looking at women.

If men are just processing breasts/hair/lipstick they probably are impaired in thier ability to determine sex. I do suspect that this male inability to see women as whole people (yes, presumably not all men) is at the root of the ever mysterious question: what the hell are certain middle aged AGPs seeing in the mirror? I'm guessing they are extreme cases of this kind of objectification and are seeing only individual disjointed features of their reflection; they don't realise the extent to which the whole looks ridiculous.

I think there's a certain amount of prey needing to recognise predators in the long grass.

I think its hard wired into women and children from an evolutionary perspective to identify the sex of a stranger due to the innate threat they pose.

I dont think men experience the same risk of assault, rape etc so there is not such a need for this ability.
So women can “see” the stance, gait, body shape, hands,feet, head size, brow ridge, jaw line, adams apple etc.

My husband usually spots them before I do on tv. He is generally really observant though.

My DH recognises trans women much quicker than me. He does relate well to women though generally.

Copied from Twitter poster is developmental biologist

There is plenty of evidence that even though all humans are really accurate at recognising sex, females are better at it than males. This has been described in one academic paper as an evolutionary necessity for females to avoid “angry, adult males”.

I believe tere's research demonstrating that women are better at this than men. In real life, I suspect it may be because men are easily fooled by fake tits, and take a while to notice the other clues - this is definitely true for me. This effect obviously doesn't happen for f2m, who I generally find pass less well in person.

When there's a TW on TV, my husband doesn't miss it. I know because he tends to say: "What an absolute unit!"

Of course they do. There was an ad on tv and DS (18) said ‘that’s a man’. When I looked it was indeed a male personage wearing a skirt attempting to walk in heels and looking rather ungainly. DH has mentioned other instances on ads/posters too. In real life it’s more obvious.

My gender critical dh is not good at recognising anything between a drag queen and Eddie Izzard. He clocks the social cues of long hair and a dress, and rarely looks beyond.

He is also much worse than me at reading emotions on faces and by body language.

There was a study a few years ago that found women probably evolved this skill to survive the threat of death and harm from men. In that same study they showed women moving footage of men who had convictions for crimes against women and many had flee reactions. I'll see if I can find it, probably have it stored somewhere.

Aye but males surely developed sex spotting instincts for purposes of… romance?

i think the conversation gets bogged down in the trans debate, and in answer to the OP: they literally don't care because it isn't an issue for them unless they have been trying to have sex with a woman who turns out to be a man.

This bit is REALLY interesting though

"There is plenty of evidence that even though all humans are really accurate at recognising sex, females are better at it than males. This has been described in one academic paper as an evolutionary necessity for females to avoid “angry, adult males”."

I think men are worse than women. I remember a boyfriend asking me people’s sex when we went to a very arty club where lots of men were wearing make up. At first I thought he was joking or having a dig at them, but basically if they had make up on, smooth skin and long hair, he’d ask me their sex.

And yes, I agree with the pp who said men see women as a collection of body parts. It’s very depressing, and contributes to the fact we’re not seen as real people. Men are the real people and then we have these weird not-men who are obviously inferior yet come with titillating features. I know not all men think that, and even those who do can sometimes see past that idea, but it’s depressingly common. So, a TW with the requisite external appearance can fool them initially because that’s what they’re focussed on.

I am female but quite bad at recognising trans people as such. I guess there is a spectrum, though, as for most things.

Probably true for some but my husband didn't realise our waitress was v obviously a transwoman recently. Men just aren't attuned to having to recognize males.

We know that there is a correlation between autism and identifying as trans. There is also some evidence that people with autism may experience face blindness more than the general population. So it could be that trans identifying people do not see themselves the same way that the general population does.
I have no actual evidence but it’s a theory.

About a decade ago I used to play a team sport with a transwoman. I never realised they were trans until some years later when I was told (now) 'he' detransitioned. I do wonder about my inability to tell, and hence don't buy the 'we always know' line, though I think I'd be far more aware now.

But thinking about it, I just never expected to see a biological male in that environment - it was a safe space for women were I didn't need to be on guard. It's also a sport that has traditionally had a fair few butch lesbians, so they didn't stick out. With that said, they were far more aggressive and physically strong than the other players who didn't enjoy playing with them.

Males seem to know who the women are when they rape them.

Or is that what the whole 'what was she wearing' thing is about? The concept that men get clothing related cues from women saying 'rape me' as otherwise they would never know if the person was male or female?

Yes I believe there is a spectrum

but i also believe that men tend to cluster around the ‘thats a woman’ end of the cluster (not all men obviously)

i have mentioned my dad who is now in his late 70’s completely confused by an episode of Ru Pauls drag race