Do men recognise the sex of a stranger as well as women?

[SantaCarlaCalifornia]

I just saw an interesting thread on Twitter by Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles) and she vocalised something I've wondered about for a while.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1585706250989281280

From the middle of the thread -

So when we see men telling women that they should treat This Transwoman as if they were female, are they even seeing the same picture as us? When This Transwoman argues they “pass” and they clearly don’t, is this, ironically, a very male blind spot?

I think there's definitely something in it, I've spotted TW on TV many times when it's not been mentioned and my husband has mostly missed it. Something just tickles my brain and I can't explain it. I wouldn't say you can always tell, but there's definitely something that gives it away most of the time.

I think the PP was using "nurture" in the sense of "nature vs nurture", in other words: is this trait due to our nature (in our genes) or has it been nurtured by our social environment (a socially learned trait)?
So PP is suggesting that women are better at accurately recognising sex due to their own life experience/social environment, rather than it being written into our genes through thousands of years of evolution.

Sure they were!

Sorry that was my response to the article posted.

I'd have thought that men would be able to recognise one of their own no matter how they're dressed.
Interesting conversation though.

What I find distressing in myself is my vigilance. When I clock someone who sets off my spidey senses I give them a lot of space, observe them sideways, and am extremely cautious.

I hate that. I hate that I'm so attuned to deception in others. I hate that I'm hyper vigilant. I hate that I may be avoiding some lovely people, because they 'don't fit' my pattern recognition.

That said, it's very rarely butch women that trigger me. I think it's actually men that I react to, with an extra dose of caution for 'men who are behaving suspiciously'.

All the men you know must be really thick or they're gaslighting you.

I agree with op.
Women much better at detecting the opposite sex because its a potential threat. The reverse isn't true.
There would be evolutionary reasons for detecting men trying to pass as women. They are so rarely successful.

It's not at all funny. It sickens me how gender non-conforming people are at increased risk of being miss-sexed or viewed suspiciously as a result of the trans movement.

This

I think the PP was using "nurture" in the sense of "nature vs nurture", in other words: is this trait due to our nature (in our genes) or has it been nurtured by our social environment (a socially learned trait)?
So PP is suggesting that women are better at accurately recognising sex due to their own life experience/social environment, rather than it being written into our genes through thousands of years of evolution.

Ah yes, sorry, misread it.

Does that follow?

If one female spots that the gorilla in the distance moving towards the group is a silverback, not one of the other females in the group, before another then presumably she can take steps to minimise her chances of being the one who ends up pregnant?

Obviously the why is much less important than the observation that seems to be true that women, in general, are better.

@Toloveandtowork I love your phrase “Mother Nature puts her best into women (females). May I steal that from you?

Like another poster I have definite sympathy for those I consider with true gender dysphoria but not the others who are ‘false actors’ AGP included.

I believe that some males can present 100% as female. I remember watching a documentary about the ‘lady boys’ in Asia a long time before the whole TWAW. I think people of my DDs generation view of Trans women is they are more often true gender dysphorics and pass well as females. But these people are more likely to be much younger and to have undertaken hormones and surgery.

My immediate mental picture of a trans women is a middle aged bloke in a bad wig. Do Eddie Izzard or Karen White consider themselves trans women?

The comment that perhaps some trans women look at themselves in a mirror an individually see the hair (wig?), lipstick, eye makeup, padded bra and dress and heels and think that makes them look like a woman, but can’t see themselves as a whole, explains a lot to me.

I would also like to know if there are any statistics that can say what proportion of the male population has true gender dysphoria and what proportion of males has AGP? When I was growing up (40 years ago) cross dressers and transvestites were recognised as men who liked dressing as women, not men who wanted to be women.

So is the proportion of men with AGP, plus those with a sexual fetish for womens clothing, and add in the paedophiles and predators, who also would like to have access to women and girls only spaces, is this a larger proportion of the male population than those males with true gender dysphoria.

To answer the ops question, do men have a blind spot for recognising TW’s. It is I imagine like most things, some are obviously yes, some no and there’s a grey area in the middle. Maybe women are genetically programmed to spot them a little better than men. Maybe men don’t look that hard because their first instinct has already told them this is an unattractive woman, and so none of the cognitive dissonance has time to set in. Yes some may see female strangers just as a set of body parts. Yes, they don’t have skin in the game. No, they probably don’t instinctively see them as a threat as women do. We know many men don’t notice untidiness and can’t find butter in the fridge.

From their point of view why should they care? TWs are not in their toilets and changing rooms.

It's not as a result of the "trans movement." It's a result of gender critical people being bigots. This is DARVO in its purist form.

"So is the proportion of men with AGP, plus those with a sexual fetish for womens clothing, and add in the paedophiles and predators, who also would like to have access to women and girls only spaces, is this a larger proportion of the male population than those males with true gender dysphoria."

I would imagine that there are many more AGPs than those with "true gender dysphoria".

Also, and I have only just thought of this, how is AGP vs gender dysphoria diagnosed? To what extent is "true gender dysphoria" potentially nothing more than the most serious 5% of cases of AGP?

"this" being the post you were writing! lol

This. I wonder if men who were abused as children are more perceptive too

I think it's true.

I was watching television with my dad recently and halfway a show he asked me if one of the characters was trans. I'd noticed them as a TW straight away. He actually thought they were a TM because they 'were wearing men's clothes'. Trousers. To my eye, the kind you'd get in the women's section (yes, anyone can and should wear any clothes they want, before anyone jumps on that).

It just made me wonder how many men assume skirt=woman, even if they notice something doesn't quite add up.

That would be a very interesting thing to know. It could go slightly further, with bigger and stronger and more confident men worse at it than those who are less confident or smaller.

I don't need to see the person to know their sex.

I can tell their sex when they are walking slightly too close behind me at night.

First it is the "too close" that makes me pay attention then it is the pattern of their footsteps.

I don't need to turn my head to know it's a man. I turn my head to suss whether he is a threat, by which time I have worked out where I am going to bolt to.

It's instinctive.

I don't believe any TW has "passed", not if they are Western. Some from Indonesia or Japan or races where the men are smaller, less hairy and more finely boned then fair enough. A Bangkok ladyboy looks much more feminine than I would, but then he is naturally smaller and prettier and less hairy than I am. I would like to know whether women from the same culture "spot" those TW like I do. Am willing to bet that they do.

IT's survival. Every man is a threat until proven otherwise, regardless of what he is wearing and what you know of him. That includes our partners, fathers and sons. It is a harsh truth, some women are abused by those men who should be trustworthy, we all know that.

we also all know that a male person pretending to be a female person is most likely fetishising women and should fuck off out our spaces.

The politicians who can't agree with us on this are male. Males run the world. So, if they can't see that a TW is a man they are more likely to be sympathetic. Sheila Jeffries wrote about that (I think it was her) that men will stand up for other men before they stand up for women.

I think about that a lot. It explains why rape is effectively legal in the UK. Why care work is so badly paid. Why the pay gap exists. Why we don't mind so many women are murdered by men. They don't "See" the issue because it is not their issue.

I believe I have spotted every TW I have seen in real life. Sometimes it takes me a minute or two for the TM, I usually clock them as "nice wee gay chap".

I always know, though.

I'm pretty sure there's a body of evidence showing women anfd choildren can correctly sex someone far more accurately than men. I can't remember where I read the studies, which is frustrating.

We're vastly better at it in person because gait, size, large hands/feet, voice are all significant indicators that just an image can obscure.

Having read @DadJoke 's comment I'll add

I can tell someone's sex in writing too. Every time.

"This" being you blaming the trans movement for the actions of the gender critical movement. It's not transgender people doing this.

I would like to know whether women from the same culture "spot" those TW like I do. Am willing to bet that they do.

From what I know they do.

I think it's fascinating. And I'm going to go away and give it some thought. One immediate thing that comes to me is that they've done studies on children and in greater than 99% of cases, without key social indicators (long hair etc) they can tell sex at a distance. This begs the question that of men don't see it do they lose the ability at puberty whereas women (females) hone it? For defensive purposes for instance.

My DH is almost always better at telling than I am. And he's autistic and can't read facial queues at all. So I do see that there is wide variation.

Cues !
Sorry for typos.