Do men recognise the sex of a stranger as well as women?

[SantaCarlaCalifornia]

I just saw an interesting thread on Twitter by Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles) and she vocalised something I've wondered about for a while.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1585706250989281280

From the middle of the thread -

So when we see men telling women that they should treat This Transwoman as if they were female, are they even seeing the same picture as us? When This Transwoman argues they “pass” and they clearly don’t, is this, ironically, a very male blind spot?

I think there's definitely something in it, I've spotted TW on TV many times when it's not been mentioned and my husband has mostly missed it. Something just tickles my brain and I can't explain it. I wouldn't say you can always tell, but there's definitely something that gives it away most of the time.

I also think you have to differentiate between the (and i am wary of actually articulating this) transwomen and the other type of trans woman (or AGP).

Transwomen of yore did their utmost to pass, really really tried. And part of that was not running around shouting "suck my lady dick" because transwomen in the past who wanted to get a GRC had to really show that they had dysmorphia - so "lady dick" wouldn't have featured in their vocabulary because for the most part that seemed to be a major source of their distress. These are the transwomen who have "been using our bathrooms" for years. And tbh i don't know anyone who has ever had a problem with that. (there may be people who have had a problem with that for various reasons which i completely understand)

But some fat bloke in a bad wig, a beard and schoolgirl uniform these days can say "i'm a woman" and that must be accepted. There is no dysmorphia there or they would shed the beard and do their best to blend in with the women quietly and without fuss.

For me? I have zero issue with the first type. I have major issues with the 2nd because, if for no other reason (i have other reasons) they are making the first type's lives very very difficult because people are hyper vigiliant now. And yes, i know people say it doesn't happen, but this also includes butch lesbians and androgynous looking women.

Spectrum of what? Sex is sex. Gender is made up twaddle and stereotypes, and people change their clothes/styles/tastes over time.

A spectrum of humans who can tell trans women from women

i think there are some people who GENERALLY, not always, cant tell that its a transwomen and then people who can tell in 60/70% of cases and those who can tell in 100% of cases

and to clarify I’m not talking about insta pictures etc as they can be so filtered

Maybe the original poster meant spectrum a different way but as we were talking about ‘men who can’t tell’ I assumed she meant spectrum of observation

Agree. Of course they know.

I find the idea that we, that is women, have evolved to have a much better sense than men for spotting men, that is potential predators deeply depressing.
It means that for most of human history there has been a significant proportion of male humans engaged in predating women. Enough to affect evolution. Some of whom may have been tarting themselves up in whatever gear passed as feminine at the time.
Actually, the more I type, the more I doubt this.

One of the difficulties with this is that, in theory, we may all be congratulating ourselves on our ability to recognise that someone who presents as female is in fact male - but of course there may be a whole bunch of male people presenting as female who we don't recognise as male. We just never realise it, because no one tells us, and so we overestimate our own ability to discriminate. (I'm a bit sceptical that this is the case, but worth considering.)

I think TV can be different from real life too, only some angles and not as much general movement. I can think of only once where DH clocked someone I didn’t but it was a teenager, incredibly thin and frail, wearing a scarf around their neck and moving gingerly and my initial thoughts were young woman with an eating disorder.

I saw them again them again a few years later and it was suddenly more obvious as their build had changed.

but of course there may be a whole bunch of male people presenting as female who we don't recognise as male

I think this is unlikely, because only very few male trans people I have ever seen online could even pass as female in a photo. Or is there some causal reason why the passing males wouldn't be trans activists? I think after puberty males just look male whatever they do to themselves. FTM would pass better, except they are often very short.

I don't agree with that at all. I think it means that we are animals driven by deep evolutionary drivers that go back hundreds of thousands of years and have roots much further than that. Fears that go back to nomadic extended family units and where all strangers need to be treated with caution and a massive part of the male role was defending the women and children.

I also think that it is incredibly naive to think society was anything other than "biggest man gets the food and the woman" for the vast majority of human history, and to some extent it is still true today. (And I am not denying that there have probably been some very sophisticated and civilised cultures in various places at various times).

Why are you ignoring two things -

Studies that show that women are better at spotting?

Common sense suggests that women have a greater evolutionary need to be better, and evolutionary need often drives outcome?

Generally I think I'm good at spotting but the younger the person the more difficult I think it can be. There was a character in neighbours McKenzie a female presenting character played by a biologically male transwoman , if it hadn't been part of the storyline and I hadn't read about the actor's personal experience, I wouldn't have known

Georgie Stone’s parents went to great lengths to trans Georgie pre-puberty for this very reason. Georgie started hormone blockers at 10.

@JulesCobb I didn't know that, that seems very sad for such a young child to go through that

but if you see someone out and about presenting as a women and recognize them as 'male' how do you know if you are right. maybe i'm just particulary bad but i've known a small number of women whom i've been surprised to discover later on were born male. i also know a couple of women that as far as i know were born female but actually i wouldn't be that surprised if you said they had been born male. and i spent an evening in the company of someone with a unisex name that i honestly couldn't decide.

i'm not convinced women are as good at telling as they think they are.

Because many really are blindingly obvious.

If evolution is involved in the differences in perception then it will be because women are the social mediators and generally read body language and emotions in others better than men. They also have better facial recognition. If women are more switched on to notice men dressed up as women then I think this is far more likely to be nurture ie today's environment than in the genes to protect against men as if they were predators.

This is really interesting.

I buy a specific make-up brand and they have a group on FB where people post selfies of themselves in the make-up, to share tips and tricks, etc.

One person, let’s call her ‘Ella’, posted a selfie of herself made-up - the make-up creates a very natural look - she didn’t look any different from anyone else, in terms of this very natural, well-blended look.

But it was 100% obvious to me that Ella is a man. Ella has chin length blonde hair, a pretty blouse on, the outline of a bra just visible underneath, and lovely, understated make-up. Chin down, I can only assume to obscure an Adam’s Apple. Ella is a man dressed up as a woman.

Off the back of this thread, I was interested to see what a man thought.

I found the photos, complete with Ella’s name clearly visible. I showed the post, with name + two selfies to DH, and said - what do you think? Nothing else.

He glanced, and said: it’s a man.

I’m sure there is, as a PP said, a spectrum of observational ability. But any man who doesn’t have a vested interest in gaslighting us can definitely tell.

I'm really not sure that one example of one man spotting one other man proves that when men don't notice they must be gaslighting.

If women are more switched on to notice men dressed up as women then I think this is far more likely to be nurture ie today's environment

Why? Nurturing random men isn't a female instinct. Nurturing children maybe.

My DP doesn't always see it when a male trans person is on TV etc. I generally do.

Love this thread. I think women would do well to see the frightening reality. We are animals and mammals, with a mind and so, very unique.

There is an evolutionary arms race between males and females. Well known in biology.

Through our minds, we have created culture.

Through culture, men dominate and seek to control, and perhaps even enslave us for the benefits they receive. So nature reflected in culture.

Makes sense that females can recognise males, a potentially mortal danger.

Of our species type, most males would die in war or scarcity of resources and not procreate.

They are always coming after us, using physical force and culture. Shame also plays a big role, a handy tool embedded in culture to subdue females. Telling women who they are by creating images of ideals in culture works too.

But we will continue to fight the good fight. Mother nature puts her best into females because we gestate and nurture the infants.

I agree - I thought I'd just put it out there, though.

Most trans women whose pics you see online are very obviously male but there are a few who look more convincingly female, like Munroe Bergdorf. But then Bergdorf has had facial feminisation surgery, and clearly puts a lot of effort into maintaining their appearance.

The number of times GC people incorrectly think GNC cis women are trans is laughable, and of course, if the only people you think are trans don't "pass" then that's simple confirmation bias.

www.newstimes.com/local/article/Woman-mistaken-for-transgender-harassed-in-7471666.php

Further thought. If, as suggested above, the big dominant silverbacks always have their way with the females. it doesn't matter what discernment skills any particular female has, she isn't going to be able to pass the advantage on in preference to the females without those skills.
But in this thread, mention has been made of why modern women may be better than men. Women look at faces, at body language, at what people are doing. Men can be looking at, well, we know what they look at (it took me ages to work out why they thought that I, acting president of the local NUT, attender at car maintenance classes, might be the sort of woman to simper at how clever they were to know what a carburettor was, but I got there in the end).