Do men recognise the sex of a stranger as well as women?

[SantaCarlaCalifornia]

I just saw an interesting thread on Twitter by Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles) and she vocalised something I've wondered about for a while.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1585706250989281280

From the middle of the thread -

So when we see men telling women that they should treat This Transwoman as if they were female, are they even seeing the same picture as us? When This Transwoman argues they “pass” and they clearly don’t, is this, ironically, a very male blind spot?

I think there's definitely something in it, I've spotted TW on TV many times when it's not been mentioned and my husband has mostly missed it. Something just tickles my brain and I can't explain it. I wouldn't say you can always tell, but there's definitely something that gives it away most of the time.

While I suspect observation, possibly some evolutionary awareness and defiantly lived experiences - plays a huge role I suspect a lot of it is the luxury of not having to care.

Same reason night walking, or averts of women running at night with headphones in get made - it's not on their radar as an issue so it's not "got".

Risk assessing for my and the kids - even teen DS is automatically - you can't avoid risk but trying to mitigate is like breathing - I know some women insists they don't do this but I can't image this - I go out live my life but am aware of potential threats.

Its odd that one of the reasons "TW" dont want to use the mens toilets is liklihood they will get attacked in them. But it would have to be a rough old loo for me to have that fear. I dont use them, not because of my saftey, but because i dont want to be in there.

So "TW" must on some level know that they are not seen as women by men.

You're right actually. Its gender critical people being upset at someone who they perceive as Trans in a single sex female space. Why? Because transwomen have proved time and again that they shouldn't be in single sex spaces as they have the same violent proclivities as every other male walking this planet.

Gender non conforming women are unfortunately caught in the crossfire because previously, only cunty type women went in the womens toilets. Women didn't have to be on high alert even in single sex spaces. Now they do.

You won't understand this as it doesn't affect you personally. "This" is your privilege speaking.

My DH was abused as a child and is very good at spotting TW, even more so than me.

The head of disguise for the CIA says that they could manage to make a woman pass as a man for the purposes of drops etc, but they had never successfully disguised a man as a woman.

To be fair, just because studies show women are better at spotting it doesn’t mean the men taking part in the studies aren’t gaslighting.

Interesting that this seems have come down to recognising MTF, virtually no discussion of recognising FTM. Is it because the latter seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon, at least in the sense of using hormones to produce male pattern baldness and facial hair? Most FTM also seem to be quite short , especially compared to the average male, and to have ( of course) more feminine feet and hand size and shape.

my DH certainly spots MTF as quickly as me. I did ask him what he would do if he saw MTF in the Gents, as this is often a point of argument for using the women’s provision.. ..he said he would get out of there as fast as possible, because it would make him very uneasy.

I remember reading something about security and intelligence-gathering work which said that most surveillance work is done by men, one of the reasons being that the person being followed was usually male and they had research showing that men notice women more than they notice men. I would have guessed that everyone would be more attuned to the sex that could cause you most harm, but apparently not.

Isn't it interesting that horses, dogs and mice can tell what sex a human is, but some humans have lost the ability? I think it's related to the fact that babies can identify sex, but toddlers sometimes get confused and think it's a function of hair length or whatever. (And indeed, some humans who are older than toddlers.)

Our language faculties give us quite the capacity for self-delusion. I've seen some recovering TRAs say they literally did lose the ability to know what sex someone was while they were deeply ensconced in gendery friend groups. But ultimately, it's an instinctive, embodied faculty, and people who can't tell have lost touch with their instincts and their senses (no shade intended, almost all 21st century domesticated humans have lost touch with our instincts and our senses to some extent.)

and they had research showing that men notice women more than they notice men.

I wonder if they tried using older women in this research! It would be somehow very fitting if it never occurred to them.

Middle aged men wearing a wig, skirt and lipstick probably don't even register with most men as many don't 'see' middle aged women either. All they see is age and clothing and probably don't give it a second thought.

When middle aged men wear sexually provocative clothing that most women their age would not, men are more likely to notice them and it's at that point that they will register the transgender male and, again, lose interest.

I remember taking my toddler DD to the supermarket wearing blue shoes, red trousers and a generic T shirt and passing a woman with a similar aged toddler. Her baby looked at mine and said Girl. Mother corrected him with "it's a boy, darling" but he was adamant that she was a girl.

Mother was looking at the short hair (took years for it to grow properly), clothes and shoes but child was fully aware of DD's sex.

This was repeated so often that I am convinced that small children are well aware who is male/female long before the "social cues" of dress, hairstyle etc kick in. It seems to change around 3-4 when they go to pre-school and start to be influenced by other people's ideas of what a girl or boy should look and act like.

That Twitter thread is great.

No, they previously didn't. Trans women have always used women's toilets, with no statistical evidence whatsoever that they are more violent. This is a bigotted trans panic we've seen so many times before with so many other minorties. Own it. And don't claim to speak for all women - it's gender critical people who are doing this, and the majority of anti-trans people are men. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you are justifying attacks on GNC women, but perhaps I need to lower my bar.

Statistics would say otherwise.

60% of males who ID as women who are in prison are there for sex related offences. For males who do not Id as women, that stastic stands at 18%.

They keep the same level of violence as males who do not Id as women, and are more than 3 times as likely to be sexually violent than men who do not ID as women.

2022 stats so not out of date. Mate.

I remember a few years ago when a Premiership footballer got in trouble for playing "Cock or No Cock" on Twitter.

Trans women have always used women's toilets, with no statistical evidence whatsoever that they are more violent.

Im older than most people herr, so remember way back when. And i can tell you for certain that women were not embracing "TW" in women toilets .

If we were, they would be no need of those 'dont ask" signs.

My dh is pretty sharp at spotting trans women.

oooh fab!! Dadjoke (never has a name been more apt) has joined the thread to talk about toilets again

going back to the topic - it’s always the walk that gives it away - no amount of heels, make up & dress will give a man a female pelvis & hence a female gait.

Also I don’t give a fuck whether a TW is dangerous or not

Single sex spaces are just that, single sex. The moment a man turns up in it, it ceases to be single sex

women don’t exist to prop up male sexual fantasies

DH and I were on holiday in Europe this summer and it was very clear to me that one of the waiting staff who served us was a TW. DH however did not notice and even the following evening he wasn’t 100% sure until he specifically looked.
The TW was young, slim and immaculately made up but I think it was the way they walked and moved in general which made it really obvious to me, sort of ‘minced’ (not sure how else to describe it) and over exaggerated.

I walk my dog regularly. It pays to know who else is there, as you need to maybe skirt some dogs, leash mine with others, let mine off for a romp with the rest.

I see people in the distance. Almost always in flat shoes, anoraks, trousers. Often with a hat. No sense of scale, really, to see how big they are.

It takes about 10 seconds at most (perhaps if they were standing still) to identify male or female.
If there's more than one, even they way they relate to each other shrieks male or female.

I can only assume you've never actually done any research into the statistics of male pattern violence and transwomen violence? Perhaps you've just taken the transwomen in your life and your twitter feed at face value when they bleat about being the most vulnerable and most at risk and whatever other competitive victim claims they make.
Seeing a transwoman in the female toilets would make me deeply uncomfortable, and I'd probably turn around and head out rather than approach them because I'm probably half their size and strength. I'm not that stupid. Perhaps this is why transwomen have claimed to always use the womens toilets? Because actual Adult Human Females daren't risk objecting?
I know this doesnt affect you so you won't give a shit but thanks for mansplaining that I shouldn't be 'panicking'.

And no, I never justified attacking anyone, but thats an excellent bit of manipulation you did just there. 10 points.

Do you understand what it feels like to encounter a male-bodied person in a female single sex space?

I worked with an older transwoman in an office job 20 years ago. She dressed very similarly to women her age in the office, had understated makeup and hair and apart from a slightly deeper voice generally passed.

Until she got up from the desk and suddenly there was this uncanny valley effect because the gait, and mannerisms in general, were just undeniably male. It was just the strangest thing because my brain would default into seeing "Jayne" as a woman and then it was like missing a step.