Trans-identifying people seeking extra rights

[SimpleName83]

Just that, really, Most people accept their sex, date of birth, place of birth. It is an historical, factual document of their birth.

Trans-identifying people seek to change a factual documentation of their birth.

That's not equality. That is transpeople being given extra rights to rewrite history.

And they are they ones saying they're oppressed??!!

Okay so say I challenged and they turned out to be a trans man ? Then what? I still feel uncomfortable because of the way I perceived them but they are biologically female so by your logic they have every right to be there. Then what?? Or worse, they are just a very unfortunate looking biological woman.

I agree.

Then nothing? You all get on with your day. So this can either go one of two ways

we all insist single sex spaces are single sex no exceptions, and if people get challenged then that’s unfortunate but the risks of males accessing these spaces is reduced, making them safer for women

or

we make all spaces mixed sex and if women get assaulted, well, that’s unfortunate but at least no male feelings were hurt.

which would you prefer?

Are you saying that we shouldn't challenge men in women's spaces because it may cause embarrassment?

Apparently. The #bekind brigade really did a number on some people didn’t it?

That was to TheSmallestOneWasMadeline

If a male walks into a female changing room, and he 'identifies as a man', the women in the changing room are allowed to challenge him. They are allowed to feel anxiety, discomfort, and allowed to ask him to leave.

If a male walks into a female changing room and he 'identifies as a woman' then the women in the changing room are not allowed to challenge him. They are not allowed to feel anxiety or discomfort of ask him to leave. In fact to do or feel any of those things would make them 'disgusting transphobic bigots'.

So, in this situation, taking place in a space meant for women, it is the male who controls the situation. The way that the women are allowed to feel and act depends entirely on how the male in that space feels on the inside and what the male thinks is appropriate. The male effectively controls the females.

Which is just how it's always been anyway isn't it?

why would you be upset if Buck came in but not a TW? Would you tell Buck to leave?

This type of discussion misses some significant points.

With testosterone treatment, these females can more likely pass than males. A traumatised female may be triggered by different aspects of someone they perceive as male. Many of these transitioned females fully understand that their presence can be distressing for other females because they have taken the steps to cosmetically appear more like males in their bodies. Those who understand they can cause other female’s distress have told us repeatedly they would find other facilities to use rather than cause distress to other females.

However, males who have gone through puberty are less likely to pass under scrutiny and females picking up cues. Some, maybe too many very loud ones saying they speak for all, males don’t seem to have similar understanding about female trauma. And so don’t extend that consideration to others.

Either way, those saying that females who have the full effects of testosterone changes potentially will still cause issues with some females with backgrounds of trauma and abuse. I am not sure attempting an absolute solution is useful .

Indeed. Because how the sexes treat each other is cultural.

This is why even if you believe that males are not inherently and innately more sexually aggressive than female, once that has become a norm of males in a culture you cannot just throw away sex-specific protections based on other cultures not needing them.

In our culture female spaces, nudity and privacy have become fetishised by male people who find the idea of the hidden female space exciting, and so for now it is a self perpetuating need.

So if you want to get from here to that open, respectful, naked nirvana you can’t do it by throwing the doors open and telling the females not to be so prudish. (Well you can, but only if you think the resulting discomfort and abuse of female people is not important) . You have to do it by educating the male people to treat female people as, well, people and not fantasy fodder, and you create additional mixed sex spaces that female people may choose to use, and you wait until the female people feel safe enough that single sex spaces aren't being used.

But I can tell you this for free, one look at Pornhub proves male people are a very very very very very very very very long way away from giving female people and female bodies the basic level of respect that would make us feel confident they won't abuse mixed sex nude spaces.

I'm not even saying I disagree with the provision of single sex spaces. I dont, at all. I think they are extremely important and should be protected.

But my original point was that allowing transgender people from altering their BC doesn't have any ramifications here because single sex spaces aren't policed in that, or any way.

If anyone can explain how they intend to prevent a fully passing TW from using the ladies using their BC with an M on it I'm all ears??

Sorry that should say stopping transgender people*

I love how TRAs think we have a problem with transmen in our spaces and our sports. I'm sorry that transmen get shit for being in our safe spaces but they are welcome to take refuge from dicks (not their arm skin ones, that's not a dick) as any other female born person. As long as they aren't doping, welcome in our sports too.
Not changing our language to describe ourselves for them. Will tolerate "women and trans men " "women and people who have a cervix etc ". Although I'm waivering on that one .

Single sex spaces aren't just toilets at truck stops, single sex spaces are changing room, prisons, hospital wards, counselling sessions. When needing personal care, we need to ge able to say clearly which sex persons washes us. Girls as well as women use single sex spaces, so when men can enter, we have the double safeguarding risk of age difference as well as sex.

Allowing men to change the sex and become female alters language so we cannot say clearly what we want, or expect when someone says this is a female or women only service.

"If anyone can explain how they intend to prevent a fully passing TW from using the ladies using their BC with an M on it I'm all ears??"

Fully passing is pretty unusual- hands, feet, adams apple, feet splayed when they stand still. All giveaways.

Like most women, I'll keep my head down and get out as soon as I can if I see a transwomen in women's public toilet

Sure, so are you planning to use shoe size to filter people in and out of changing rooms? 🤔

If a man genuinely passes as a women - enough even not to be unnoticed in a female only space, realistically we can't stop him.

But realistically that isn't what is going on. Why would there be a need to have 'don't challenge anyone in this space' signs if people passed?

Why are we imagining scenarios where tw pass, when there's few TW spokespeople, celebrities or YouTube stars that do? I'm struggling to name any.

How about men who identify as women having the courtesy to not enter female only spaces? Be kind! SIMPLES

But gender identity is a good filter?

Like the 'six words' amendment in Scotland. Several political parties voted against rape survivors merely being able to request a female examiner.

If a birth certificate can be changed to falsely claim that a male is female, what language can women use to specify that they want to be treated/examined by a female?

There's a reason why the focus is always on toilets, rather than rape crisis services, hospital wards etc. It's a lot easier to say 'they just want to pee!!!!!' than to address the issue of women self excluding from such situations and other settings/services designed to support them.

"Sure, so are you planning to use shoe size to filter people in and out of changing rooms? 🤔"
No, I'm saying very few actually pass and if they want to make women feel uncomfortable in previously safe spaces- mission accomplished.
Urinary Leash 2.0

It was be nice if they just stayed the fuck out

It's the only one I can think of that doesn't require anyone to actually check and enforce to be honest

Last night some pissed up bloke had a piss in a public space and looked my teenage daughter in the eye as he did it. She was scared and the only reason I didn't go and lamp him was because it would have added to her discomfort.
But if he puts on a frock and goes in a mixed sex toilet with urinals and does the same, she's the bad guy for objecting that's ok.
Make it make sense.

Exactly.

What does 'female only' actually mean, in a society which allows males to have 'female' on their birth certificate?

"It's the only one I can think of that doesn't require anyone to actually check and enforce to be honest"
Good guys stay out so the bad guys stand out.
Society expects men to respect women's privacy. That's totally reasonable

Yes.

We hear 'it's because of the nasty TERFS that female athletes will have to have their genitals checked [or whatever it is they are saying] to play'.

Which ignored the fact that if males just stayed the fuck out of female sports in the first place, no one would have to check anything.