Trans-identifying people seeking extra rights

[SimpleName83]

Just that, really, Most people accept their sex, date of birth, place of birth. It is an historical, factual document of their birth.

Trans-identifying people seek to change a factual documentation of their birth.

That's not equality. That is transpeople being given extra rights to rewrite history.

And they are they ones saying they're oppressed??!!

Doesn't seem to stop people constantly advising women on here not to put their children's bio dads on their BCs!

True - and I think it sometimes goes too far, although if it is a child protection issue, it makes sense. Strictly speaking, a birth is a record of the person giving birth and the person being born, as these are the only two factors that can be proved without any doubt at the time.

We would all hope that the father would be present, involved, caring and doing the basic job you would expect a father to do - and when that is the case, nobody has any qualms about naming him on there.

Of course, there is also the opposite anomaly, whereby the husband of a mother is 'officially' the father - and he is actually allowed to go and register the birth himself - even though there will obviously be times when he is not the father, whether knowingly or not.

Another one is being trans is absolutely not a mental illness and it's offensive to suggest it is.

I remember Theresa May going red in the face and shouting that being trans is NOT a mental illness. I think we need to dial it back a bit and, rather than bluster about how offensive it is to 'slur' somebody like this, bigoted people like May who feel that MI is somehow dirty or shameful need to seriously examine their prejudices and their shameful attitudes.

If you have a clearly sexed body aligning to one sex, but in your mind, you believe that you are the other - not just rejecting stereotypes, which is entirely a personal prerogative, but actually that you ARE the other sex - how can that not be an issue with mental processing and the mind not functioning as it should in accordance with the body? And I do believe that the use of the word 'gender' is just unnecessarily thrown into the mix to deliberately obfuscate and confuse.

There's nothing bad or shameful at all about MH problems and denying their existence only serves to deny the help and consideration that people with them may require. People in positions of power, like May, are nastily exploiting their own prejudices in order to subjugate and deprive vulnerable people who need and deserve help in their circumstances.

Nobody would dream of denying that, say, Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson has a physical disability and denounce the obvious sign of that - her use of a wheelchair - as a figment of people's imagination; and scream 'phobic' and 'hater' at anybody actually wanting to help by making sure that there's a ramp and accessible facilities at a building where she's going to be present. She is respected and esteemed for many things - and she has also campaigned to help and counter discrimination against others with disabilities, but never by claiming that those disabilities and needs don't actually exist.

If anyone can explain how they intend to prevent a fully passing TW from using the ladies using their BC with an M on it I'm all ears??

You are missing the point.

Society is formed through the interconnected affects of explicit laws, social conventions, cultural beliefs and pressures to change. You can't parcel up little bits and pieces and treat them as separate problems that don't affect each other.

So, the BC by itself isn't the thin pink line keeping males out of female spaces. But when you have a law that accepts that the sex on a BC can be "wrong" because mental gender and not body is what actually determines sex, you take a sledgehammer and knock a massive chunk out of everything that exists to deal with physical sex, which given that females are physically weaker, culturally disempowrred and sexually exploited, has a more significant impact on us than on males.

The simple existence of legal acceptance that BCs can be altered because that sex is overridden by mental gender makes it harder for female people to ask male people to leave the ladies, regardless of whether any specific male shows , or even has, an altered BC.

Which ignored the fact that if males just stayed the fuck out of female sports in the first place, no one would have to check anything.

👏

And do you think men who really are sex predators are going to wait for "permission" to enter women's toilets and go through all the trouble of becoming trans? There's nothing to stop an abusive predatory man just entering women's toilets regardless if the law permits him to or not

All the trouble of becoming trans? Men literally just have to say the magic words 'I'm a woman'.
There was a saying I read on here, "the good men stay out, so the bad men stand out". We don't know which men want to harm us so the safest thing is female only facilities.

As far as I'm concerned, any grown man demanding access to spaces where women and children are at their most vulnerable are EXACTLY the men that need keeping out. Their gender feelings are irrelevant.

Well the human rights act says everybody has the right to not be discriminated against

Yes, this is all fine and dandy but Stonewall did a great job of convincing everyone that the comparator for men who call themselves women is women, when it is in fact other men.
So it would be discriminatory to stop transwomen using men's facilities or entering men's sporting competitions etc.

The law allows, in some circumstances for female only spaces, services and sports. This is what the TRA want removed, which is men oppressing women once again.

Why do birth certificates need changing anyway when they denote a person's sex not their 'gender'? Which the rampant TRA's tell us aren't the same thing?

Why the fuckety fuck should we have to pretend that a persons self image or expression makes any difference to their sex whatsoever?

@TheSmallestOneWasMadeline You say you are in favour of single sex spaces, but how exactly do you say provide a female HCP if a male can say they are female? If a traumatised woman asks for a female HCP and an obvious male turns up, how can she refuse. After all, his birth certificate says he’s female so he’s female in the eyes if the law. That’s what you’re advocating for.

What need there to segregate by gender identity? And how can we segregate by gender identity? What even is the definition of gender identity?

MN should have a FWR-only like button.

This is so well articulated and sums up my feelings exactly. Thank you.

I'm question whether its a small group to be honest. I think a lot of male decision makers recognise themselves somewhere in the definition of the trans umbrella.

Powerfully said, Ally.

(Ironic that the TV series Ally McBeal was the first portrayal of a "gender neutral" workplace toilet that I ever saw.)

I've been hugely involved with women's sports for thirty years - playing, organising and now coaching. Allowing men to participate in women's sports is the single biggest threat women's sports have faced in that time, so yes I have some thoughts about it.

We didn't have these issues a few years ago. History tells us as much.

Men were not willing to lose their penises to be able to compete in women's events. Today the men competing in women's sports don't take oestrogen, they've simply reduced their testosterone levels.

The men in women's prisons remain fully intact. Again if the requirement was to lose the penis, you wouldn't be seeing sex offenders who love to use their penis as a weapon in women's prisons.

There's deliberate naivety with this statement.

Male children are taken into single-sex spaces because those males are not a threat to women, and those males are also at risk from men (adult human male).

The threat comes from testosterone, it's what turns non-threatening boys into threatening men. Quite frankly a woman injecting male levels of testosterone into her body will also be a threat.

Trans men are not welcome in women's sport, because again testosterone.

A man (for whatever reasons) may not have a penis, but as long as there is testosterone swirling around that body, or had male puberty the threat will be there.

So are you suggesting @ReunitedThorns that transmen, transwomen and men use one space and women use another? Works for me.

I do get what your saying but it just seems like such an unlikely scenario, and women (and anyone) are always entitled to refuse intimate care from anyone for any reason aren't they? Surely a TW wouldn't be forced on them and I cant even imagine someone who is caring enough to be in that line of work to want to be forced on them. It just seems like a bit of a reach. And sorry to use Buck Angel again, but I cant see a traumatised woman wanting care from someone who looks like him regardless of their bio sex either. Biological sex is important, sure, but how people perceive other people is a consideration as well, surely?

Errr…. Harold shipman was someone in that caring profession? Beverley,Allit worked as a nurse and killed babies? Why do you think someone who works in healthcare is automatically not a predator? So rather than hurt a makes feelings, you’d rather an already traumatised woman suffers more trauma. Gotcha. I mean, it’s only a woman right? As long as the poor male gets his validation, it’s all good.

You're literally writing this on a whole forum about women, many many posts judging other people's parenting. Or complaining about maternity rights, SEN support, domestic abuse. And plenty of horrible threads on those topics.

Again, six words amendment www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,six-little-words-for-the-word-gender-substitute-sex . The Scottish Greens party en masse voted against rape survivors being able to request a female examiner.

A woman was raped in a 'single sex' NHS ward by a male and the hospital and Police gaslighted her that she couldn't have been raped because 'there were no men on that ward'.

Lol at the idea TW HCP wouldn’t be forced on women who didnt want it - the NHS is over of the most captured institutions in the UK

meet Kamilla Kammarrudin.

Link

I cant even imagine someone who is caring enough to be in that line of work to want to be forced on them.

Yes, no one in the caring professions has ever been predatory or done anything bad.......

This. ^^

And any male walking into a female only space in the belief that they will 'pass' is believing that they can fool women into never knowing that male smashed their boundaries, ignored their access needs and consent and tee hee hee to them.

The behaviour is revolting. Those males who want to not use male sex based spaces and females anxious to get their kit off in front of random males are welcome to set up third spaces. They can leave everyone else alone. Because the rest of it is quite intentional boundary smashing, control and exclusion of females in favour of male people never encountering the word 'no'.

Or the woman who had her letter requesting a female examiner for an examination of her breast passed around the NHS Trust as an example of 'transphobia' - www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/12/09/hospital-apologises-to-rape-victim-for-branding-her-request-for-same-sex-breast-screening-medic-as-transphobic/

I listen to the Transparency podcast, I heard it said on there, by a passing transman, that those born male and passing transmen should keep out of women’s spaces, not impose themselves on women and I agree with this. Testosterone is a powerful substance and in my opinion women who take it and have had a mastectomy can “pass” effectively as men, thing is they often seem to understand this and have the empathy with their sisters which means that they wouldn’t want to make us uncomfortable or anxious.

The fact is, we simply dont know how long these issues have being going on. We don't know how long authorities have been lying and saying that man in women's spaces is a woman.

It's only because woman are talking to each other about it, and investigating, that we know that men are attacking women's hospital wards and prisons. Hospitals, prisons and the press are lying, but who know how long they have been lying?