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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JKR in the Times

53 replies

impossibletoday · 15/10/2022 18:36

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4c8f5740-4ca1-11ed-84cd-44cc4c68f778?shareToken=cd7a1958a5b7ef1544f21717d81ce8bd

OP posts:
Smilelesstalkmore · 15/10/2022 20:47

The argument against what she says is that GRA reform has no bearing on what spaces people use. But that is missing the point that in a society where everyone knows that any man, regardless of how he presents, could legally be a woman because he might have signed some forms, it will become much more difficult to challenge males in female spaces. After all, as TRAs tell us, no one checks birth certificates when going into a toilet. So women are going to feel much more uncomfortable challenging males generally and even if they do the male could just claim they have a GRC and the woman be dismissed as a transphobic bigot.

This is exactly what happened at the WiSpa in California, where lo and behold the 'woman' turned out to be a convicted sex offender.

And apparently GRA reform was pushed through in Ireland by stealth on the back of marriage equality, so people didn't even know it was an option.

And it's not just toilets anyway is it? It's prisons, hospital wards, refuges as well.

Maybe it needs spelling out a bit more clearly, but it seems obvious to me?

Johnnysgirl · 15/10/2022 20:51

EndlessTea · 15/10/2022 20:06

And they can ask for ‘trans friendly’ DBS checks too… What could possibly go wrong? 🤔

It this true? 😱. You can self identify as the opposite sex and have your complete history wiped out? Wtf?!

LunaLights · 16/10/2022 00:21

@Johnnysgirl - absolutely true. If you look at Mermaids latest job vacancies, it even stipulates that a criminal record may be no impediment to working with them, and they will perform a trans-friendly/sensitive DBS check…. to work in a children’s charity.
🤯

SimpleName83 · 16/10/2022 00:55

What everyone else says, and also the thing about transpeople being given the privilege of changing their own birth certificate. I find this stunning, and not in a good way.

To be able to change their own birth certificiate, issued very shortly after their own birth, so they really would not have known anything about it at the time. Their mum, dad, or both, went to the registry office with the form given by the attending midwife/midwives/doctors, testifying to birth of female child or male child according to physical body presenting at birth. Legal document, I always thought, that form we got from the hospital after the births of our children, and then going to register them with the local births registrar within six weeks of birth.

So transpeople want the extra right, that no-one else has, to scrub out and falsify this detail of their actual physical sex at birth on their birth certificate; even though the birth certificate is meant, at the time of birth, to be an accurate record of that new human, same as their day and time and place of birth.

Gender has fuck all to do with the process. A baby is born and registered. That baby is either female or male. No other options at all.

And yet, this factual process must now be overturned and changed.

Blimey.

Birth records need to be factual for all kinds of reasons. Subsequent medical treatment. Equality monitoring, even in nurseries and primary schools. Subsequent children knowing who their mum and dad may be.
Lots of reasons for knowing accurate sex, rather then a legal lie. Gender? Might as well put Star Sign.

I really don't see why a legal lie should be tolerated at all. Especially when the legal lie that men are now women, means that women are more disadvantaged than men by this; it means that women have no same-sex provisions away from men. And this will lead to bad consequences for women, girls, children.

AutumnCrow · 16/10/2022 01:12

As posters have said on here for years, the GRA was a dreadful mess.

RhannionKPSS · 16/10/2022 01:40

Brilliant article, thank you yet again Jo 💪💚🤍💜

BreadInCaptivity · 16/10/2022 02:26

RhannionKPSS · 16/10/2022 01:40

Brilliant article, thank you yet again Jo 💪💚🤍💜

Absolutely

SimpleName83 · 16/10/2022 03:07

As JKR says:
"fI Sturgeon’s new act passes into law, a person will be able to change their legal gender as long as they’ve lived in their acquired gender for three months, and made a statutory declaration that they intend to keep doing so. Remarkably, nobody seems able to explain what living in an acquired gender actually means, so how those granting certificates can judge whether the criteria has been met is anyone’s guess.

Yes. Gender ideology getting into law, is a nightmare in making, A nightmare for women and children. No more women's rights - because men now, are given women's rights, Even the right to be able to claim that they are a woman.

cocktailclub · 16/10/2022 06:59

The article is so well written.
What are people not understanding?
Nicola Sturgeon is even more blinkered and unreasonable than I had thought. If this goes through it will be such a massive backwards step for women everywhere.
The madness needs to stop now.

Octoberfishing · 16/10/2022 07:25

Searing clarity.

Bloody fabulous.

LaPufalina · 16/10/2022 07:27

Even more sure she's a MNetter now!

KatMcBundleFace · 16/10/2022 07:47

Sturgeon is so out of touch with normal people in Scotland on this. What a joke the woman is.

Live4weekend · 16/10/2022 11:06

What about the kids?

I haven't actually googled this so don't know the answer.

What happens to a man's birth certificate when he changes it to be female sex? I mean the original one?

Also what happens with the birth certificate of any child he may have?

Does that also have to be updated?

Or does that poor child now have a birth certificate with name of father, where there is absolutely no trace of said person since they have changed sex?

Apologies if it's a silly question, but fathers (and mothers) changing sex impacts their children too but I am not sure that is given consideration.

justdonttalk · 16/10/2022 11:20

JellySaurus · 15/10/2022 19:41

Hospitals are also captured. There was the incident when a female patient was raped while on a women's ward, but the hospital told the police that no rape could have happened as there were no men present. (Just a patient with a very womanly penis.)

Don't believe there ever was a woman raped on a ward. Just nonsense.

Live4weekend · 16/10/2022 11:30

justdonttalk · 16/10/2022 11:20

Don't believe there ever was a woman raped on a ward. Just nonsense.

I know it is so ridiculous.

As soon as a male utters those words 'I am a woman' they become a woman in every way, and no longer pose any risk to woman what so ever...........

CompleteGinasaur · 16/10/2022 11:34

justdonttalk · 16/10/2022 11:20

Don't believe there ever was a woman raped on a ward. Just nonsense.

(Sigh).

Just google "Woman raped on a hospital ward", go on, it's not difficult..

justdonttalk · 16/10/2022 11:44

SimpleName83 · 16/10/2022 00:55

What everyone else says, and also the thing about transpeople being given the privilege of changing their own birth certificate. I find this stunning, and not in a good way.

To be able to change their own birth certificiate, issued very shortly after their own birth, so they really would not have known anything about it at the time. Their mum, dad, or both, went to the registry office with the form given by the attending midwife/midwives/doctors, testifying to birth of female child or male child according to physical body presenting at birth. Legal document, I always thought, that form we got from the hospital after the births of our children, and then going to register them with the local births registrar within six weeks of birth.

So transpeople want the extra right, that no-one else has, to scrub out and falsify this detail of their actual physical sex at birth on their birth certificate; even though the birth certificate is meant, at the time of birth, to be an accurate record of that new human, same as their day and time and place of birth.

Gender has fuck all to do with the process. A baby is born and registered. That baby is either female or male. No other options at all.

And yet, this factual process must now be overturned and changed.

Blimey.

Birth records need to be factual for all kinds of reasons. Subsequent medical treatment. Equality monitoring, even in nurseries and primary schools. Subsequent children knowing who their mum and dad may be.
Lots of reasons for knowing accurate sex, rather then a legal lie. Gender? Might as well put Star Sign.

I really don't see why a legal lie should be tolerated at all. Especially when the legal lie that men are now women, means that women are more disadvantaged than men by this; it means that women have no same-sex provisions away from men. And this will lead to bad consequences for women, girls, children.

What you don't take into account is the reasons why some men want to be recognised as women. For instance women are treated far more leniently than men in the justice system. Where a man will get a two year prison sentence a woman will get probation. Women's prisons are like holiday resorts compared with men's prisons. As we have just seen in Russia they have had a draft of 300,000 men into the army but no women. If this were to happen here you certainly couldn't blame men for wanting to be treated like women.

OldCrone · 16/10/2022 11:48

justdonttalk · 16/10/2022 11:20

Don't believe there ever was a woman raped on a ward. Just nonsense.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4507790-Hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-because-attacker-transgender

WandaWomblesaurus · 16/10/2022 11:59

@justdonttalk

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10625997/Hospital-said-rape-single-sex-ward-not-possible-revealing-one-patient-trans.html

You know what's tedious? Having to explain to people like yourself who clearly have no clue, that predatory men will do what they want with the bodies of women, girls and children. How naive do you have to be to think that everything is going to be fine and dandy if any man can identify as a woman and gain access to single sex spaces?

What do you think safeguarding is for?

Datdamndamp · 16/10/2022 12:00

Unconscious women, disabled women and elderly women with dementia have been raped and sexually assaulted on hospital wards and in care situations. Even dead women have been raped in mortuaries as the news showed so recently.

Google would help you here.

Women want female carers and single sex wards.

bellinisurge · 16/10/2022 12:03

Stick your fingers in your ears and go "La La La" all you like but women and girls have already been assaulted because of de facto self ID.

BenCoopersSupportWren · 16/10/2022 12:21

For instance women are treated far more leniently than men in the justice system. Where a man will get a two year prison sentence a woman will get probation.

Not true. Women as a class are imprisoned less frequently overall than men as a class, because in general they commit less serious offences. But when, for example, certain low-level offences are compared, it’s notable how more likely women are to get a custodial sentence than men (for example of the people imprisoned for non-payment of TV license fines, 74% are women).

www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/drunk-women-face-harsher-sentences-than-men-research-claims/5068005.article

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-get-tougher-sentences-than-men-cjpdx65q7

Women's prisons are like holiday resorts compared with men's prisons.

So much to unpick here. Firstly, allowing men into women’s prisons is going to change that pretty damn quickly, isn’t it? Secondly, if male prisons are harsher, more violent and more unpleasant places maybe that says something about the nature of men? And finally, women’s prisons have essentially been the pilot for trauma-informed custody practices, as it’s understood that the majority of women in prison have been the victims of trauma, and it’s now being recognised that a similar approach may well benefit the men’s estate, so that should slowly change.

OldCrone · 16/10/2022 12:42

Datdamndamp · 16/10/2022 12:00

Unconscious women, disabled women and elderly women with dementia have been raped and sexually assaulted on hospital wards and in care situations. Even dead women have been raped in mortuaries as the news showed so recently.

Google would help you here.

Women want female carers and single sex wards.

I assume your reply to me was aimed at the person I was replying to. I was just trying to help them out with some information about an incident where a woman was raped and the hospital lied to the police because they thought they weren't allowed to tell anyone that there was a male transgender person on the ward. The hospital staff had presumably been misinformed by Stonewall that they couldn't reveal that person's transgender status.

SudocremOnEverything · 16/10/2022 12:43

It beggars belief that any government is trying to make legislation with no definitional precision. Absolutely no one can define ‘living as a woman’ in any meaningful way. It’s literally impossible to do so. Given this they cannot make law with serious implications based on something completely undefinable.

The fact the Scottish government are not interrogating this at all - indeed doing all they can to prevent anyone doing so - suggests a total absence of competence to govern. They aren’t even attempting to produce competent legislation.

it appears that being popular amount certain sections of twitter is more important than actually having the difficult discussions and providing the kind of clarity that is required.

The current Scottish government are truly embarrassing in how poor they are. There are many, serious issues that affect the people of Scotland - and for which the Scottish government are responsible because they are devolved matters. Yet, this is the kind of thing sturgeon prioritises.

bitachey · 16/10/2022 12:49

One of the issues with Sturgeon is she won’t admit she’s wrong on anything. She just digs in. As a Scottish woman I am incensed by how dismissive she is of women’s concerns. Not even taking the time to listen and reflect. Not “real feminists” indeed. Thanks you JK for standing up to her. I actually hate the woman and party for what they’ve done to Scotland.

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