What male only spaces are trans men fighting for the right to access?

[onaslant]

There's so much about TW and toilets and prisons and what have you.
I am curious to know any/all areas in which Trans Men have fought to enter a male space.
The only example I can think of for now is Freddy (seahorse) - a trans man who gave birth - wanting to be listed as a male on the birth certificate (this was refused).
Are there documents cases of Trans Men fighting for access to male toilets, or being refused access to male toilets.
Trans men fighting for access to male dressing rooms and male prisons.
Male only gentelmen's clubs?
Boys schools, boys sports teams, male high profile sporting events
trans men using their new gender identity to assault children/women
Trans men in the miliary
Trans men arguing for higher pay
Genuinely curious to know all examples you can think of (if any)
Also can you think of areas where trans men are still disadvantaged.eg. I understand that a trans man can't inherit if the inheritance is due to go to the first born son (the natal son wins out). This hasn't been challenged in court yet as there aren't enough young trans aristocrats knocking around.
Any examples - or pointing me to an earlier thread on this subject - much appreciated.
I feel we are only hearing the trans women's voices and cries for access..

Off the top of my head: gay male-only saunas. Private members’ clubs. Golf clubs. I’m sure a trans boy applied to Eton or somewhere - definitely a boy-only boarding school. Don’t think they were successful.

Ha literally cross posted thinking on the same subject!

To be fair, so far single sex schools have largely held out re admissions. My own old girls school does not allow trans girls to apply but does acknowledge that existing girls in the school might wish to identify as boys and will respect that.

Are there actual cases where trans men have asked to go into male only saunas and private clubs? Any references? I'll have a google.

Are there actual cases where trans men have asked to go into male only saunas and private clubs? Any references? I'll have a google.

There was a case quite a few years ago, might have been a gym - sorry I can't remember the details or whether they were allowed in or not.

www.attitude.co.uk/news/world/london-gay-sauna-kicks-out-trans-man-for-not-having-a-penis-297475/

Actual case

Sauna: www.attitude.co.uk/news/world/london-gay-sauna-kicks-out-trans-man-for-not-having-a-penis-297475/

The masons allow male members to stay on if they transition to women BUT also now also trans men to join. This is completely illogical!
I think the push for this was the trans woman wanting to stay on n the mass

`in the US trans women would have to sign up to be drafted - but trans men are given a pass! Curious to know the rationale.

parenthood is equal - a person's gender change does not affect their status as mother or father (why not?)

Primogeniture - if lady hoo ha becomes lord hoo they are still a man when it comes to inerhiting titles etc (this favours men).

Well I have seen transmen in gay men's choirs. Schools for sure. There are cases in the military in some countries. Though most have women in the military anyway. I know of transmen who use male toilets.

They would get told to fuck right off by men because men don't have to put up the invasion of their spaces.

Funny how their sex matters still eh.

Probably like a parent group for dads
Assuming they gave birth to the baby and are the mother.

I know of a TM convert who had a drop of blood taken from her genitals as the symbolic of a circumcision.

The school thing make senses. I think trans people should be supported in an appropriate way, whatever that looks like for their individual circumstances, but that ultimately their “rights” come back to their sex. I have no issues with a transman who passes as a man being in a female changing rooms for example. I understand this might make some people feel uncomfortable but that discomfort doesn’t actually make that person dangerous (statistically speaking when we talk about men and violent crime). Whereas sending a transman into a male changing room could actually be dangerous for them.

There is a space to support trans people within (intersectional) feminism - and the people we need to support are transmen.

Sorry, middle of the night ramblings from a sleep deprived mother…

"They would get told to fuck right off by men because men don't have to put up the invasion of their spaces."

Doubt that tbh. Most men for example probably wouldn't care about transmen using their toilets tbh. Hell, women ' invade" men's spaces all the time if the queue to the ladies is too long

I think that's part of the reason there has been less obvious controversy.

Things like prisons, transmen are not trying to go there.

Toilets, some do, and men may not like it but are not likely to complain even so. They don't feel directly threatened by it.

Gay cubs, that seems to bother some. Though maybe not all, after all Buck Angel's main fanbase is gay men.

There are some female masons (transmen). I have no idea what their members think about it. As to illogicality, this is what the masons say about their policy:

Equality law impacts the way we operate in two main areas in relation to gender reassignment. First, admission. Lodges under UGLE admit men and only men. Now we need to be precise about what we mean by a man. We must use the legal definition: somebody born a man but also someone whose birth certificate states ‘female’ but has since undergone the legal process of changing gender. If a new member was born female but has changed gender, he is as eligible as any other man, providing he meets the other requirements.

The second area is retention. Equality law allows bodies like the Women’s Institute and Freemasons’ Lodges to discriminate on gender at the point of admission, but it doesn’t allow them to discriminate after entry. That means a Freemason who becomes a woman is entitled to remain a member of her existing lodge(s).

I remember reading about trans men meeting lots of resistance on Grindr and other gay dating apps but could only find this article from 2017.

www.thedailybeast.com/grindrs-trans-dating-problem?ref=scroll

The thing is it's not a fair comparison. Firstly a trans man entering male spaces poses virtually no risk based on statistics of female on male sexual and physical attacks. Secondly it is well documented that fetishes are at a far higher level experienced by men then by women. So we don't get women who fetishise being male, getting sexually aroused by wearing boxers, mens swimwear or "men's" clothes and also turned on by the subjugation of men. Where/what is the opposite sex equivalent of sissy porn? Finally, there are not leagues of men walking around who have been physically and/or sexually assaulted by women and as a result are actively scared of being in a vulnerable state with them (not saying there are none, but the numbers are tiny at a population level).

Also worth noting that the trans men who are pushing to be in male spaces have generally gone to quite some effort to pass as male. They're not rocking up in a short skirt, stilettos, full face of makeup and eyelash extensions and demanding entry claiming that any critique of their appearance is bigoted because men can dress however they want...

Oh and there doesn't seem to a a track record of trans men flashing the their genitals online or engaging online with minors and telling them to speak to them, not their parents, for example.

So men aren't generally fighting women coming in their spaces if they identify as male, because there's no intrinsic threat to them.

Not really a transmen in men’s spaces thing, but I believe transmen are treated as men for the purposes of giving blood - their iron levels are measured against male iron levels and they can make more frequent donations than women. Given that they are not actually male, and that the female limits on iron and donation frequency exist to counter the differences in blood volume and iron levels due to the fact that women have periods, I would think that treating transmen as men for the purposes of blood donation is probably detrimental to their health. Validating though.

Someone else will come and say this better, but it's the colonising effect too.
Yes, men are not under threat from transmen but also transmen blend in and get on with their day.
Transwomen on the other hand, are a danger to women, are more exhibitionistic and take over the female space.
The male and female socialisation in action.

There have been some instances of females trying to push into gay men's spaces and services, like dating apps, saunas, bars & clubs, retreats.
I guess similar to the AGPs it's more validating to target gay men than hetero ones.

Apparently there are hetero men who stalk gay apps and say they are open to hooking up with 'trans men'. And then these females complain the hetero men are using them while the gay ones ignore them.

I've seen at least one female try to be included in a men only suicide & depression support group. The collective decision was a polite but firm no.

Since women are not generally physically aggressive or intimidating, those that want to force themselves into men's spaces are either ignored or told no. Which leads to much whining and complaining (rather than threats of violence).

The biggest problem is in gay men's sex clubs etc. These females seem very psychologically damaged and prone to putting themselves in harmful / risky situations.
I think I read about one who seemed determined to get HIV as it would validate her as a gay man. Very crazy.

The push by the gender lobby to remove sex by deception as a crime, or at least create a loophole for 'trans' people to get away with it does have implications for gay men the most I think.

The right to inherit titles and land over younger (biological) brothers (or cousins etc if no brothers?)

They don’t really need to fight to get into most spaces as most trans men pass well enough to get on with their lives unnoticed.

I work in a girls' school and we don't have any trans girls but we do have some few trans boys.

A friend of mine is a gay man and says a few of the dating apps he used to use before he found his partner used to get a few trans men. They wouldn't mention it in their profile or anything, but he would be able to tell based on pictures. I wondered how this went if they went on dates with gay men without the men knowing they were trans. Maybe they would have let them know in private chats or something. That's the only one I can think of.

AFAIK trans men can't go to male prisons for their own safety. Also some trans women aren't safe in male prisons. But clearly some vulnerable women aren't safe in women's prisons if certain trans women who are still biologically male are allowed to access them. Messy.

Is there any push in Ireland for transmen to be able to become priests? I'm pretty certain patriarchal religions know exactly who is/isn't a woman.

The Catholic Church believes that transgenderism 'annihilates the concept of nature' (!)

I would be really interested to hear Trans Men speak up about why they are not fighting to go into some male only spaces, like prisons.

A few years ago, we had a discussion about a trans man being kicked out of a sauna. It might have been the case linked to above, in fact it probably was. (www.attitude.co.uk/news/world/london-gay-sauna-kicks-out-trans-man-for-not-having-a-penis-297475/)

I remember that there was a gay man who felt very strongly that trans men should not be allowed in gay spaces. He may have written a blog post about it, but he also joined the MN discussion thread.

Sorry for the vagueness!

Obviously trans men aren't nearly as aggressive about being allowed into men's spaces as trans women are about being allowed into women's spaces. I can't think why that might be.