What male only spaces are trans men fighting for the right to access?

[onaslant]

There's so much about TW and toilets and prisons and what have you.
I am curious to know any/all areas in which Trans Men have fought to enter a male space.
The only example I can think of for now is Freddy (seahorse) - a trans man who gave birth - wanting to be listed as a male on the birth certificate (this was refused).
Are there documents cases of Trans Men fighting for access to male toilets, or being refused access to male toilets.
Trans men fighting for access to male dressing rooms and male prisons.
Male only gentelmen's clubs?
Boys schools, boys sports teams, male high profile sporting events
trans men using their new gender identity to assault children/women
Trans men in the miliary
Trans men arguing for higher pay
Genuinely curious to know all examples you can think of (if any)
Also can you think of areas where trans men are still disadvantaged.eg. I understand that a trans man can't inherit if the inheritance is due to go to the first born son (the natal son wins out). This hasn't been challenged in court yet as there aren't enough young trans aristocrats knocking around.
Any examples - or pointing me to an earlier thread on this subject - much appreciated.
I feel we are only hearing the trans women's voices and cries for access..

Gay cubs, that seems to bother some. Though maybe not all, after all Buck Angel's main fanbase is gay men Really, @MangyInseam? That raised my eyebrows.

I know of a couple of TM who participate in the gay fetish scene in London. I couldn't work out why they were tolerated and doubted that the gay men would feel coerced into #bekind in their own saunas and clubs.

The TM are being fetished and they believe that they are being accepted and validated, are't they? They are the submissive because they can't be anything else, no man would be into being dominated by a female - unless he has a humiliation fetish. Which explains sex with a group of men watching - because if he is being a bottom to a female and being observed by dominating men he gets off on the humiliation.

I wish I'd had my coffee and gone for a walk this morning like I intended, but I got sucked into MN and now I can't even type "sucked into" without mental images that are unrelated to my very nice coffee that I was enjoying.

Men are weird. And I say that as a straight woman.

Not sure about Christianity but on the documentary My Transsexual Summer there was a TM training to become a rabbi.

A pair of transmen sat in the men's section of an orthodox synagogue I sometimes attend. They basically tricked the very sheltered and trusting Ultra-orthodox rabbi into shaking their hands (contact between adult males and females outside immediate family in Ultra-orthodox communities is forbidden). I have my own views about Orthodox sex/gender roles but their conduct infuriated me. Whatever you believe about gender, you don't con a strictly orthodox man into thinking you're male, making him break a commandment that he lives his life by, just for your own validations

I understand that a trans man can't inherit if the inheritance is due to go to the first born son (the natal son wins out). This hasn't been challenged in court yet as there aren't enough young trans aristocrats knocking around.

😂😂😂

Nobody in Ireland is becoming a priest anyway

Trans men tend to pass better so no-one notices the loos etc, but they often aren't fighting to be in men's spaces because they don't want to be in them. TM know they are safer on women's sports teams or in women's prisons.

I had this discussion with a gay male friend who runs tantric workshops. These are single sex, gay men only because he says they sometimes involve nudity. When I asked how he dealt with the issue of a TM wanting to join and identifying as a gay man, he said it didn't ever come up, and as gay men they didn't feel the trans issue was anything to do with them. He appreciated the issue of trans women wanting to be in women's spaces but from his point of view it was not something that concerned them as gay men. It was fascinating.

Because transmen are women. They have been socialised as girls, to not push in, not make waves, not to demand, to be rude. Men, on the other hand, have been socialised to do all those things.
That's why there is such a difference. Transwomen have male entitlement.

This.

All the examples I know of where transmen have fought for access to male spaces have already been mentioned in this thread.
Online I see them active in the linguistic erasure of all words referring to people of the female sex (for 'inclusion' reasons), but I have never seen them try to do the same to language referring to people of the male sex (where 'inclusion' doesn't matter).
Which is thought-provoking. Indeed, almost all groups of trans people seem to unite in the desire to erase the female body but only the female body, and that's why I believe this movement to be built on a strong foundation of misogyny.

Yes a lot of this push to remove the word woman eg birthing person etc. is coming from trans men or non binary bio females.

Yes, Buck talked about it in an interview. Apparently when getting started in the porn industry, no one knew who would want to watch a Buck Angel film. SO they made one with men and women, one with just women, and one with just men.

The latter took off and sold like hotcakes in the gay community and that continued to be the demographic interested in that kind of porn.

yeah I remember it too made the papers
transman was thrown out of gay men's sauna - in London story was in the pink news I think although possibly elsewhere too can't remember the year but it was a little while back

www.attitude.co.uk/news/world/london-gay-sauna-kicks-out-trans-man-for-not-having-a-penis-297475/

“I understand that the gentleman was male however his physical gender was different”

Physical gender. Right you are.

There's an "Amsterdam style leather bar" near me. Obv is a v niche space. Historically many gay male friends were turned away cos they weren't the right kind of bear.

In more recent years there has been a drive to be inclusive of trans men in these spaces (!) The club's response is to put trans men are welcome on the flyers/website etc but host nights that demand genital nudity. So pretty much a case of yeah you are allowed into this cruising space and potentially hook up with other trans men but you will be grey rocked by all the cocks and if humiliation ain't your bag...

If that bar is in London, @JustStopOilyPoshKids then it is probably the same one that these young TM are going to. Unless there's a chain of them like Spoons.

Outside of London but pretty typical of scene everywhere I would say, @vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Have seen growing dissatisfaction amongst younger TM on the fet scene re being sidelined/ fetishised for being trans. More "queer focussed" and heavily vetted events have sprung up. A lot of discussions of "problematic" practices. The whole rabbit hole is problematic. You can see a lot of broken, deeply unhappy people.

If I recall correctly though, the reason they gave was because they thought it might not be allowed under their licence. They then contacted whoever makes those decisions who said it was fine, so they allowed transmen afterwards.

It was controversial with the clients, from what I understand, but the club was not willing to take a stand on it.

I saw that one leather fetish gay men's group made a big deal about accepting trans men into their group and the shock of the chariman when the majority of members were against such proposals.

Also seen disappointment at trans men going to gay clubs and realising that muscular gay men just wanted to be with other muscular men and not a geeky teenage girl with a moustache.

Usually get this stuff from Glinner's substack.

The fetish groups have chairmen? And, presumably votes?

Did not expect it to be so, well, organised!

If you are in the UK the automatic right to inherit is for titles only- not land.

If you google Mr Menno Gay Guy reacts to Wavey Davey you'll find a Mr Menno rant about transmen expecting gay men to accept them as sexual partners.

For reasons I can't recall we're not allowed to link directly to it here.

Point is... sex segregation needs to be made part of law, with the explicit duty on organisations to mitigate against rapey spaces. I have stats from moj 2016-22 and a whole bunch of other stats (globally) and they all say one thing:
SEX SEGREGATION is a MUST.
We are RIGHT to be afraid. I have the real stats in front of me ie 2016-22 MOJ and a bunch of FOIs and I am here to tell you that EVEN with transmen bundled in (most of the ONS figure is not sex disaggregated) it is higher than male.
However, that doesnt actually help for female sex segregated spaces because the test they have to meet is AS LOW (or lower) than the sexual offending of the female population. The other thing I can hear, in responses from me to not over-inflate the statistics is "they havent listened so we have to make it look even worse than it is, in order to get them to listen.
The over-inflated calculations are unhelpful because it can lay those asserting the case for absolute sex segregation open to i) hysterical ii) transphobic and iii) not very good at Maths!
I have all the stats and am preparing a report for desks of every single MP before next election and I could sure use some help.
>Photoshop
>graphic design
> website (I have one but it needs cheering up)
> it also needs ecommerce so when the report is ready I can get it to everyone who wants one to give to people.
I am sure everyone is hard up but just in case you have any to spare I do have a crowdfunder but too busy to do much to promote it. If I dont keep my eye on the stats, it will be so hard to catch it back up.
I have spent over £1,500 from savings and I really can't afford to spend much more but I HAVE the resources to sort this mess out.

This image took me far too long to decipher.

They're striking graphics. You probably should start a separate thread to discuss these, @Pommie69

Agree.

The graphics are really great.