What male only spaces are trans men fighting for the right to access?

[onaslant]

There's so much about TW and toilets and prisons and what have you.
I am curious to know any/all areas in which Trans Men have fought to enter a male space.
The only example I can think of for now is Freddy (seahorse) - a trans man who gave birth - wanting to be listed as a male on the birth certificate (this was refused).
Are there documents cases of Trans Men fighting for access to male toilets, or being refused access to male toilets.
Trans men fighting for access to male dressing rooms and male prisons.
Male only gentelmen's clubs?
Boys schools, boys sports teams, male high profile sporting events
trans men using their new gender identity to assault children/women
Trans men in the miliary
Trans men arguing for higher pay
Genuinely curious to know all examples you can think of (if any)
Also can you think of areas where trans men are still disadvantaged.eg. I understand that a trans man can't inherit if the inheritance is due to go to the first born son (the natal son wins out). This hasn't been challenged in court yet as there aren't enough young trans aristocrats knocking around.
Any examples - or pointing me to an earlier thread on this subject - much appreciated.
I feel we are only hearing the trans women's voices and cries for access..

Me too. "Male transwomen" as a phrase makes my brain stutter while I try to make sense of it and I cannot.

But we ther than that, yes they are striking graphics.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-53936529

www.starobserver.com.au/news/trans-activist-max-appenroth-is-mr-gay-germany/208104

www.sbs.com.au/topics/pride/fast-lane/article/2018/05/30/trans-man-wins-title-mr-gay-denmark

gaynation.co/trans-contestant-adrian-renor-wins-mr-gay-wellington/

Transmen are better at being men than gay men, apparently. I’d be pissed off.

There are a lot of transmen aiming to encroach on gay men's spaces, such as saunas, social groups, apps etc. I was just talking about it with a gay friend of mine recently who said he and his friends are secretly sick of it but most won't say it aloud. Have a look at some of the gaybro threads on Reddit for example. There's a lot of gay men not happy with it, but it doesn't generally get as much attention in mainstream media.

Funnily enough he said he'd never heard of transmen trying to encroach on straight mens' spaces however.

Grammatically "trans men" is unhelpful (i wd suggest i am autistic so i get hung up on logic. A transgender woman is a transman ( no space). The word woman has a meaning it is already taken. More radical feminists disagree with me 🙄bbut strategically i just want this to be over & i think there is value in recognising they "gender identify AS women", still aint got no business in female sex segregated spaces . (I am an engineer so i have crunched the data for a full 5 years. The only test can be... sexual offending that is AS LOW as the FEMALE population. Dont make me laugh!)

As never before we need multiple adjectives & even then there is no adjective that describes transwoman so you get the nonsense of "transgender prisoners" when we are talking transwomen. It takes a very clunky use of grammar to say what you actually want to say. Someone suggested trans-feminine...I am glad to have an adjective...still mulling it over. I always hated being "feminine" ie gender stereotypes & basically sexual objects for men. They can have trans-feminine that doesnt cost me anything.

None.

I was going to link to that Mr Menno video mentioned upthread where the issue of a trans man attending a gay male sauna was discussed. I can’t remember the details but Mr Menno also objected strongly to a trans man being featured on a promotional billboard for such a sauna. I think the mastectomy scars were the give away.

Basically, some trans men think it’s fine to be in these spaces giving blow jobs because, to put it bluntly, you don’t need a cxxk for that so what’s the problem? It raises the issue of sex by deception if in the steamy environment the gay man doesn’t notice that the deed is being performed by a female, which, as a gay man, he wouldn’t be in the least bit attracted to. Gay men go to gay saunas with the expectation of being in an entirely female-free space after all.

I actually think that if trans men want to use male toilets then that’s their choice. The men in there are more of a risk to them than they are to the men - I would personally worry on their behalf but respect their freedom of choice. I hate the way some beefed-up, hirsute trans men are flexing their muscles in a menacing way on their Instagram accounts saying ‘so you want ME to use the ladies?’. My response to such posturing is, I might do a double take if you came in and you might alarm some women who may not clock you so perhaps use the gents and we’ll all be happy? But I hope that third spaces will become more common so that the trans men who don’t want to take that risk can pee in peace too.

I actually think we should be very clear and say we don’t want trans women in women’s spaces and forget about arguing on behalf of the trans men who wish to take the risk of using the gents toilets. If they don’t understand the arguments/statistics vis-a-vis the threats posed by men towards women - then we’re wasting our time and energy arguing about it.

On a related point, I’m also very tired of the few high-profile trans women accounts I’ve seen where they’re all glammed up in make-up or looking ‘gorgeous’ in their sports bras and telling us they’re just about to go to the Men’s changing room in the gym (following the EHRC news) I think we’re supposed to go ‘how ridiculous’ and/or feel jealous of their gorgeousness and worry that our ‘husbands’ will be led astray by them! It’s really rather insulting and demonstrates all the sexist tropes they’re buying into - I’m just thinking - great, knock yourself out - you finally get it!!

They show up on Grindr though I don't think I'm adding anything new to this thread with just that fact - TMs entering gay male spaces has been referenced quite a few times already.

A lot of TMs are girls who would just be lesbians, often butch ones, if not exposed to the trans CULTure. But there's also quite a few who through abuse, discomfort with their bodies or whatever, get drawn in but that doesn't stop them being heterosexual. Confusion or misplaced expectations of gay men, leads them to try and find intimacy from gay men because that doesn't invalidate their self-image or they think gay men will be better or more understanding for some reason. The whole American sit-com "gay best friend" thing may be a factor?

I feel sorry for them. Firstly because they're not going to find what they're looking for on Grindr. Secondly, it's really not that safe. There are 'straight' men on Grindr too. Ones who are strictly fetishists about dominance/submission for whom gay sex has gotten wrapped up in that. I had a guy on there ask me if I'd ever raped a woman and wanted to bring in a TM as a third party!

Young women are at enough risk in ordinary life without registering on hook up sites like Grindr. Though mostly they are just ignored.

This reminds me of that character in 1984 who worked on changing English so that people couldn't think in unapproved ways anymore because they didn't have the words for it or the meaning of the words had been altered: "It’s a beautiful thing, the destruction of words" - Symes, "1984"

Men wouldn't have it. But it's ok for us?

In my little village there are 2 TM 'behaving badly' according to mum.

One is pretty convincing in a smaller man type of way, face piercings, a beard, facial tattoos. They use the men's loo in the pub (no lower surgery, they use the cubical) and the men have complained and leave the pub when he arrives.

Other appears to be an exhibitionist, no attempt at all to pass, walks round naked in the men's changing room at the sports centre. This also upsets a lot of men (and sometimes wives).

So neither are currently having to fight for access but they do want access and presumably feel safe enough doing it.

Wonder how transmen would be seated at Mr Yousef’s mosque?

Wow! That's VERY atypical. I've usually had different attitudes to transwomen and transmen on the basis that the former's behaviour is typically a lot more intrusive than the latters. Girls seem to transition because they are uncomfortable with their developing bodies, the sexual attention or difficulty fitting in with other girls. Whereas adult transwomen are usually about the sexual aspects of things. Just out of curiosity, how old is this TM?