I'm not a woman - which facilities should I use

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

Genuinely interested to hear what supporters of gender ideology would recommend here. I am biologically female but do not identify as a woman. I am officially trans though in reality I don't think I am the sort of person Stonewall meant to refer to in their definition of trans (I am gender critical - which for those who have been misled by some made-up definitions, to me means that sometimes sex, rather than gender, matters. It is not an anti-trans stance).

The question is - which facilities should I use? I should not be in the ladies if that is defined by identity but using the men's does not feel right either. How do gender ideologists suggest I negotiate this?

Once again, more perfect examples of gender ideologists ironically bringing regressive gender stereotypes to the forefront of their arguments.

Emma Watson feels free to invite men into women's public toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons and rape crisis groups because she will never need to use those spaces.

A former MN staffer, who now Tweets as WTFoucault wrote a splendid Twitter thread about this very issue, a couple of years ago analysing it as a class issue. Luxury beliefs indeed.

Sorry, I didn't bloody save the link, so can't find it now. But it's worth following her Twitter feed.

By that reasoning Emma Watson would probably say the suffragettes were not real women based on their 'non feminine actions' they had to resort to enable females to vote.

Seriously OP use the mens, not sure you deserve to use the female facilities if you are too embarrassed to be considered a woman.

So so true birdinahedge . Only the privileged can afford to spend time naval gazing like this. Meanwhile, the rest of us are worrying about things like fuel poverty, safeguarding against this ideology, cuts to children's services, the state of the economy and how much more shit the government can possibly get.

Found the thread! It's really worth reading.

twitter.com/WTFoucault/status/1144980854722220032

Why would anyone even entertain this idea? Women’s toilets are for females. Now, I could say that being a woman meant you had to wear make up so only people wearing make up should use the Female toilets but I’d be talking out of my arse!

I don’t think we should enter into discussions about things that are obviously idiotic. I’m all for understanding but this desire to ‘see all sides’ is often taken to the extreme. No-one can ‘identify as a woman’ because the whole premise is ridiculously flawed. Women have a myriad of views and feelings.

If you’re simply asking what gender ideologists would say, they’d say the toilet you’re most comfortable in (and damn everyone else in there 🙄). If you reply that you’re not comfortable in either, this will be because society is dreadful and you’re being discriminated against, and would still be discriminated against even if a third space was provided. Chin up, perpetual victim!

Emma Watson is a fucking idiot. She doesn't formulate her own opinions because she doesn't have the brain capacity to do so, she simply follows whatever liberal trend she finds fashionable and jumps on the bandwagon.

She is so very damaging.

You take advice from Emma Watson? Why? You know that you're a woman. Stick with that.

Agree with this. unlike JK who has had to fight and struggle for recognition this child 'star' who has lived in a privileged bubble the majority of her life has decreed that unless you look like a Kardashian or extra out of bridgerton you are not a woman?

P.s. despite not dressed in flowery dresses and covered in make up absolutely no one has mistaken me for a male/man.

"According to people who believe in gender ideology - say Emma Watson, for example - I am not a woman. That's why. According to gender ideology there is no more reason for me to go into the women's that there is the men's."
And you give this point of view credence because.....?

To clarify, @Whatiswrongwithmyknee is not really struggling with which loo to use, but is making the point that, according to current loopy gender ideology, a biological woman who doesn’t “identify as a woman” (as most of us here don’t, we just are aware of the fact that we are women) would not be sure which toilet they are meant to use. Opting out of gender stereotype and identity-wallowing means, in their books, that we’re all actually trans? It’s a good (but very round the houses) way of displaying the total circular-thinking, navel-gazing, self-indulgent and day-to-day impractical nature of this nonsense.

Confused me for a long time, OP, but we got there in the end.

Yes @JacketPocket I was just thinking is this a "oh, I see what you did there!" moment, a reverse if you will?

Yes, a title of "I don't Identify as a Woman" would have been a lot less confusing!

Good point!

you’re not a adult female chicken, so not a hen. ETC

You are a woman, an adult female human. That’s the definition of a woman.

by saying you don’t “identify” with womanhood, what do you mean? what’s to identify with when talking about a bodily description, like sex? Sex describes the type of body you have, nothing more nothing less. It leaves you free to have any personality, interests and preferences.

I think you mean you uphold the misogynistic stereotypes associated by the patriarchy with womanhood but place yourself outside it, “not me, ladies!”

that’s your problem. I don’t uphold these stereotypes and I am a woman.

I don’t have an identity regarding the colour of my eyes, the sex of my body, etc.

men and women can feel stereotypically feminine, masculine, neither or both, and this can fluctuate throughout their lives. They should be feel to express themselves as they want to in regards to this. It doesn’t change their sex.

and rearranging the whole of society bc some people have deemed to uphold patriarchal stereotypes and raise them to “identities” is not an acceptable demand, more it’s regressive and sexist. It affects women’s and girls privacy, safeguarding and sports

if you haven’t gotten to the extend of modifying your appearance to pass (aka deceive) as a male, then you should use the Ladies, unless you want to risk sexual assault in the men’s.

If you have, then respect women’ need to be safe and have privacy from males, they won’t know you aren’t one, and use the men’s.

I don't understand why you are being made to feel like you're not welcome in spaces that have been made for you - i.e. biological female, please feel welcome in women's/ladies toilets and changing rooms. Who the hell are these people to make you feel space-less?!
I find it really interesting that you appear to be redefining who you are, based on someone else's agenda.

Can I ask - before there was quite so much very public and furiously divided debate about sex and gender - were you anxious about using whichever toilet you used? Would you say all these definitions and "rules" are making you happier as they make the issues more visible, or more confusing?

In a lot of your posts, you talk about what gender ideologists feel and say and think and demand, rather than what you think and feel and self-define, but they don't make the rules. They don't get to tell you how to feel and where to go. Unless I'm missing something?

The point is that people who belive TWAW do not belive that you and I are. As a menopausal women with a large number of health issues it seems incredibly privileged to be able to worry about whether one has a body which has the right genitalia etc. (Even if it were possible to really mock up the opposite sexes genitals). Personally I'd like a body which can walk more than 500 yards and which is not often in pain.

I'm totally with you but want gender idologists to explain where people like you and I fit into their new world view. Our saying 'we are women's sadly, and wrongly, being taken as evidence that most women identify as women.

Why are you reducing people to genitalia?!

The whole body is sexed, the sex influences the way we talk (deeper voices for men etc), walk (different gait due to different ratio of pelvis to the rest of the body hence different centre of gravity), smell (men on reduced T (TW) still have double T than normal range for W, they can’t lower it more safely, And the presence of T makes sweat smell very different, pungent), look (face, size of hands, feet, hips, shoulders, height, etc), even the way we feel like (a woman’s skin, lips are softer, there is more subcutaneous fat). Genitals are one part of it.

we don’t need to worry about who has the right “genitalia”. Do you see the men in Iran worrying about that? Or the Taliban? Do you think they do genital checks on who is allowed to go to school, etc?

we’ve evolved to tell sex to close to 100%. All the other animals do it, and there’s never been butt sniffing or show of genitals in all of human history. that’s because we’re a dimorphic species.

nowadays there are even apps who can tell men and women apart just from a face photo. And studies have shown babies can tell sex too, Google it if you don’t believe me.

the people who believe TWAW also believe someone identity is whatever they say it is. So if I say I’m a woman I am one.

I wouldn’t put it pass them to renounce that and just look at how one conforms to stereotypes and say me, short hair, no makeup, unshaved, etc - not a woman. Sexism on steroids but not unbelievable at this point.

they can’t explain it, it’s hard to maintain you’re a progressive and a feminist when all this sexism is exposed. But sure, I will never close my ears for fear of being wrong, I can always learn. I welcome an explanation.

I didn't mean to reduce it. Just a note that men taking hormones and having a neovagina fashioned does not mean they have bodies like women. I.e. you can mock up external genitalia appearance more than you can change a lot else to a female sexed body. Personally I find the term transitioned offensive as it, as you say, reduces us to the things which can be changed

I’ve been puzzling over your questions and replies for a while and I think the problem is this

1. Please can you explain what you mean by ‘officially trans’.

In what sense are you trans? Are you someone who is biologically female, thinks that this is sometimes relevant, but doesn't identify with gender stereotypes. As someone wrote elsewhere... I think this might be old school feminist, rather than trans. 2. You say you are biologically female but don’t ‘identify as a woman.' But this is not because you reject the notion of being biologically female, and it's not because you reject the notion that sex is relevant, it is because you reject the notion of ‘identifying as…’. If you reject the notion of 'identifying as' a woman or a man or trans, then you are like me. I also reject the notion of 'self identification' and don't know what it means to 'identify' as a woman (other than in the softest sense of 'believing myself to be female' largely because of my sex and how that mediates my experience of the world). Gender ideologues would surely just say you have Terfish tendencies and not bother to engage with you.

1. You say you are not anti trans but in some circumstances you think sex rather than gender matters.

you haven't said in what areas it matters. You say this doesn't make you anti trans but in the views of gender ideologues you are transphobic.

1. You are asking Musmsnet what supporters of ‘gender ideology’ would think.

It’s the wrong place to ask. Better to ask it on Twitter where people who support gender ideology tend to reside. People have mistaken your question as an issue of ‘what toilet you should use’ rather than something trying to expose a flaw in the ‘gender ideologists’ arguments.

1. In answer to the question, 'if I don't buy into the idea of gender self identification (or I don't believe in two gender identification) then what toilet should I use if my use of that toilet is based on what gender I identify with', I think people who do believe gender identity is a thing would think you were arguing from the wrong starting point - they'd insist gender self identification was the only thing - and then ultimately argue for gender neutral toilets were anyone could go.
2. Far more interesting question is why - if gender is all about self identification - race isn't, or religion, being Jewish or black, or even having brown hair. or blue eyes. I self identify as younger or older.

Their heads will explode

It's a really interesting perspective OP and it seems out heads have exploded too. Putting myself in the shoes of a genderist though, I expect the answer would be whichever one you feel most comfortable in.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

If you were head of UK public facilities, how would you design loo facilities?

Thank you @BirdinaHedge I don't have a twitter account- but that thread tempted me!
Hope it is being shared far and wide?
i can share links at least