I'm not a woman - which facilities should I use

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

Genuinely interested to hear what supporters of gender ideology would recommend here. I am biologically female but do not identify as a woman. I am officially trans though in reality I don't think I am the sort of person Stonewall meant to refer to in their definition of trans (I am gender critical - which for those who have been misled by some made-up definitions, to me means that sometimes sex, rather than gender, matters. It is not an anti-trans stance).

The question is - which facilities should I use? I should not be in the ladies if that is defined by identity but using the men's does not feel right either. How do gender ideologists suggest I negotiate this?

This gender ideology nonsense and the rest of it is absolute bollocks and it's about time women, real women, stopped engaging it with it and hopefully the fad will go away. You've got a vagina yeah OP? Then you're a woman. It's really that simple.

They probably aren’t answering it because they aren’t here on this thread. Pretty much al the GC women on this thread are saying that they reject the attempted re-definition of womens toilets (and the rest) as gender-based rather than sex based, and are all treating toilets (and the rest) as if they were sex-based, as that’s the only thing that makes any sense.

I suspect “they” would say that the best answer is to have all “gender neutral” toilets so everyone feels comfortable. But plenty of people don’t feel comfortable or safe without the sex-segregation in toilets (etc). And often “gender neutral” is just made from the womens loos, which is infuriating. I prefer to refer to those as “mixed sex” which highlights the issue. I’m fine with additional loos being designated “gender neutral” if some people want it, but not instead.

Exactly- the brain scan didn’t show anything! 😀

There is no science to show a trans person is a special kind of human. There is certainly nothing in law to give any trans person a free pass.

If women's facilities are for people who identify as women, what so other non transmen use?

Women's toilets are NOT for people who "identify" as women - they are for women. You know - biological females - the ones observed female at birth, whether they "identify" as men, ninary, non-binary, 2-spirit, cat, unicorn or whatever.

SEX dictates which facilities people should use, not gender identity.

I have no idea what the second part of your sentence means - obviously a typo for "what do other non-transmen use" - but what on earth do you mean by "non-transmen"?

You. are asking what gender ideologues would say?
well firstly they they might dismiss you as you believe biological sex is relevant and they don't, whether or not you describe. that view. as 'anti trans.' I don't think I'm transphobic but I'm definitely gender critical which for stonewall etc makes me transphobic by definition.
I think stonewall would ultimately advocate for neutral spaces where people can go irrespective of the gender they align (third bathroom or cubicles) or suggest that in the meantime people like yourself who don't align with either gender just go into whatever loo they fancy, breezing in with the inscouciance of someone who doesn't think it matters.
But I'd say that agender or gender neutral doesn't make a great deal of sense. To me you are a biological woman, a woman, who chooses not to identify with the conventional stereotypical constraints on being a woman. It's just a fancy way of being a seventies feminist.

In all this discussion, I mourn for women's toilets. In schools, in nightclubs with lots of seats, mirrors and sinks in a big, communal space - where you could mess about, laugh uproariously, (smoke!) and not have to "perform" for the men outside. I'm a bit too prudish (and only had male friends in those days) but my younger women friends laugh about squeezing two of you into a cubicle as it was quicker.

Gender neutral toilets will take away a valuable women's space and call it progress.

Gender ideoloolgists. Like I said in the post

Can you explain what a gender ideologist is please op?

Well I'm a trans person, which I presume 'supporter of gender ideology' means, but I'm more concerned why you've come to anti-trans central to ask that question when you want 'supporters of gender ideology'?

Also, what the hell is gender ideology?

Gender ideology is another meaningless word fart.

To answer a few queries which have come up and address a few points.

This is what Stonewall say Trans means:
An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman, trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.

Anyone who does not have a gender identity is, according to their definition, trans. I believe this is a very large number of people. I don't think I am special by any stretch of the imagination. I think Stonewall's definition makes it 'special' to NOT be trans though I would not think that needed announcing either.

This it their definition of non-binary:
An umbrella term for people whose gender identity doesn’t sit comfortably with ‘man’ or ‘woman’. Non-binary identities are varied and can include people who identify with some aspects of binary identities, while others reject them entire.

Again, I think this describes most people.

A gender ideologist is someone who believes in gender ideology. I.e. that most people have a gender identity and that this is so important we need to announce our gender identities and have social categories according to these categories - anyone who says TWAW is a gender ideologist.

It is interesting that supporters of gender ideology seem to be able to pounce on women on MN with lots of slurs, insults and obfuscations on a regular basis but can't answer this simple question. If we categorise facilities according to your gender identity, where should the large number of 'no identity' people go?

I'm completely behind the idea that identity is irrelevant to toilet, changing room, hospital ward use etc. but I am asking people who think differently to tell me how they think I should negotiate this?

If women's facilities are for people who identify as women, what so other non transmen use?
Women's toilets are NOT for people who "identify" as women - they are for women. You know - biological females - the ones observed female at birth, whether they "identify" as men, ninary, non-binary, 2-spirit, cat, unicorn or whatever.
SEX dictates which facilities people should use, not gender identity.
I have no idea what the second part of your sentence means - obviously a typo for "what do other non-transmen use" - but what on earth do you mean by "non-transmen"?

Apologies. That was very unclear. I meant: what do other females (who do not identify as transmen) use?

Perhaps the opposite of gender critical.

So perhaps you are well placed to answer my question. Which facilities do you think I should use and why?

Bingo! Proved my point above.

many trans people often don’t have the same hormones, brain patterns and in some cases there are very blurred lines with genitalia. Telling someone ‘well, you’ve got all the bits, you must be a woman’ doesn’t help when that persons brain says otherwise.

There is great variety between the millions of women in the world. Different shapes, sizes, brains, thought patterns, hormone balances and all the other things which make us individual. Quite a few women are physically taller or stronger than the average man, play more football, earn more, are better at physics and maths, perform more similarly to the average male on certain tests, etc. This does not make them any less female.

Indeed! Drop a bomb, insult, but don't answer a reasonable question.

I would suggest that it is grown up to ask these questions tbh. It is immature not to engage in the discussion. It's grown up to say 'lets say we did structure the world as you want, then what?'.

So to sum up, the answers from gender critical people seem to be "use the ladies - they're for people who are biologically women and nothing to do with identity".

The answers from people who support gender ideology seem to be....tumbleweed.

TBH I think nobody gives a stuff OP, just go to the womans toilet.

You have lost me - how is anyone supposed to understand this ad therefore support you? I am a well educated professional and re read your post three times and still have no idea what you are.

May I simply:

If you have a vagina - use the ladies
If you have a penis you use the mens
If you have had all of your genitalia removed you may feel more comfortable in a private disabled bathroom

It doesn’t matter how you identify given this is about safety and sex.

Simplify

Would you feel comfortable with a third ‘non-binary’ option for all trans?

I wish it were about safety and sex. Do you know what is happening to women's spaces? a powerful lobby is trying to make them open to anyone who identifies as a woman. Apparently they are less interested in discussing which spaces those who have no gender identity use.

Maybe I didn't express myself well but it seems hard for people to understand that there is a pervasive assumption that most people have a gender identity. This assumption is key to much policy making and debate. We should not accept it.

To be clear, I've not asked for support. I've asked for clarification from people who believe that toilets etc are segregated by identity

Mens and womens facilities rrseved for biological men and women and a third space would be useful but third spaces are not always feasible.

Toilets are segregated by sex. Biology will tell you which one to use.
There is no reason to think we can’t achieve a third option in time.

Just use the facilities based on your sex. It’s not difficult.