Page 35 | Mermaids being investigated by the charity commission

MajorieEks · 2022-09-29T15:22:46+00:00

“hoisted by their own petard” never seemed more apt, if true

Theluggage15 · 05/10/2022 16:28

I’m surprised RMW is a lawyer when her grammar is poor. ‘Appropriate to have a pop about myself’.

RobinMoiraWhite · 05/10/2022 16:29

NewBootsAndRanty · 05/10/2022 16:09

Do you have ANY self awareness?

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Well, I’m not Skynet, at least when I last looked.

OldCrone · 05/10/2022 16:32

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/10/2022 16:19

One can only hope that in the light of the appalling scandals that are emerging about Mermaids, their defence counsel will be shortly be engaged in preparing more bundles when they're dragged through the courts to explain their fondness for recommending struck off medics, untested medication, myths like "born in the wrong body"and parental alienation to young children along with allowing unsuitable adults access to the management of a charity for vulnerable and often mentally unwell children.

It seems that Robin is 'confused' about the idea that parental alienation is a problem. Mermaids seem to have decided that parental alienation is actually desirable with their encouragement for children to make legal changes to their identity without parental involvment as soon as those children reach 16 years of age as well as sending out breast binders to girls when they are aware that their parents are not in agreement.

From the Telegraph article:

Mermaids says that 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds can “attend on your own” at the clinic, while under-16s need a parent or guardian and “all queries will be treated as confidential”.

...evidence obtained by The Telegraph showed Mermaids staff agreeing to send a breast binder discreetly to a girl they believed was only 14 after being told repeatedly that her mother would not allow her to use one.

Mermaids said: “We take our responsibility to protect young people’s right to autonomy seriously, and services like our Name Change Clinic are fundamentally grounded in their legal rights.”

web.archive.org/web/20220930211049/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/30/trans-charity-mermaids-helps-teenagers-change-name-secret/

RobinMoiraWhite · 05/10/2022 16:32

FernPotts · 05/10/2022 16:26

Robin... I am a bystander who is very, very bored of hearing your bundle whingeing rather than anything on topic, or relevant to women's rights. No, I didn't 'start it' (are you 6?).

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We can talk bundles all night, if you like.

picklemewalnuts · 05/10/2022 16:34

Watching the mermaids debacle, it seems to me another manifestation of the rejection of the expert.

Instead of trained grown ups delivering information and running organisations, we've had enthusiastic amateurs. Cheerleaders.

Cheerleaders who fail to spot safeguarding red flags because, bless, they are cheerleaders.

Anyone with any trained background would spot red flags like:
looking out for isolated vulnerable teens to help
Allowing adults to mentor said vulnerable teens in PMs
Sending medical equipment to children without parental knowledge
Recommending clinics that prescribe drugs over the internet

Spotting those red flags is not the same as accusing people of being predators. It's not an accusation, it's highlighting an area of weakness that could be exploited by predators.

The most shocking part of it all, to me, is the schools failing to spot the problem.

They are grown ups, trained professionals. How the hell did they miss it?

RobinMoiraWhite · 05/10/2022 16:40

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 16:12

@RobinMoiraWhite One last... given the important of good bundles what procedures do you have in place to minimize the chances of you not being able to get the best result for your client as a result of poor bundles? Or is it more the case that it is simply out of your hands, you just have to do the best with what you've been given?

There has been a lot of learning about electronic bundles in recent months and years, especially as virtual hearings have become more common given the difficulties we have all struggled with.

Given the difficulties this case threw up, I have been working on this topic with a software house and may have something to offer shortly.

No doubt a further mention of bundles on a Mumsnet thread at the appropriate time will offer the opportunity to introduce the new software. I’m sure you will all be fascinated (not).

Live4weekend · 05/10/2022 16:40

Grievedbutrelieved · 05/10/2022 15:25

I have name changed to comment but can't handle a load of bashing. If my story helps just one person I will be relieved. My DD was sexually assaulted in school aged 12. She skipped school and was forced out for poor behaviour. She was also not believed. She didn't tell us. At her next all girls school she made friends with two lesbian girls, still no story until her head expressed concern over her Internet friends and her declining mental health. Again she was forced out, this time for wearing trousers. Later we learned it was her opinions on LGBTQ rights nowt to do with uniform. She had joined a group of glitter friends. During her next school placement she asked for councilling which seemed to work. She was happy, did well in school and was pronounced no longer in need of Camhs. In covid she had a relapse partly caused by a stalker who was harassing me. It brought it all back. We went straight to support services who horrified me by offering a referral to the Tavistock and Mermaids. This took 15 minutes to be recommended by a new clinician. He knew nothing about the attack, her previous joy in feminity or the fact she had a boyfriend. Short haircut, docs, bang, trans. No interest in why she felt like this, what it would mean, just I will do the referral.
I point blank refused to travel to the clinics. I posted on here and got some good advice but lots of abuse. She was still a child suffering from low self esteem and poor mental health.
We finally got a new young GP who offered her support for her depression and self harm. A year later she is well. Learning to drive, off to work and university in January. She has slowly started to change her image. She has long nails and more fitting clothes. But the thing that has gladdened my heart is that she wants children. Her own. Previously she wanted a hysterectomy and a double mastectomy. I had refused the binder as we have breast cancer in our family.
I am not transphobic but she could never be a man. She has tiny hands and features. She didn't understand that if she used male loos or went into hospital as a man she ran the risk of being raped. Why are the people that are pushing these children not aware of the risks? Do they see these poor souls as fodder for their warped mines. I have employed two mtf people in my time. Both unhappy, both abused.
We are at the point she doesn't mind her birth name from family or the she pronoun. Her future is brighter.
I truly thank you wonderful people who have banged the drum for inquiries and safeguarding. Thank you so much. X

You are a good mum. You have done your daughter proud.

Grievedbutrelieved · 05/10/2022 16:42

Thank you to all who have supported.
I had never told my story in full. Time was needed for my DD and no one was giving it. My dds headmaster admitted to forgetting her preferred name. One teacher was so embrassed and apologised for (dead naming her). He was scared he was going to be disciplined. We ask so much of our teachers. They are neither clinicians or mental health experts. I think at the time she was being groomed for activism. She is super clever (law, politics). We told her in no uncertain terms she was playing him. These online people had a lot to answer for.

LaughingPriest · 05/10/2022 16:43

picklemewalnuts · 05/10/2022 16:34

Watching the mermaids debacle, it seems to me another manifestation of the rejection of the expert.

Instead of trained grown ups delivering information and running organisations, we've had enthusiastic amateurs. Cheerleaders.

Cheerleaders who fail to spot safeguarding red flags because, bless, they are cheerleaders.

Anyone with any trained background would spot red flags like:
looking out for isolated vulnerable teens to help
Allowing adults to mentor said vulnerable teens in PMs
Sending medical equipment to children without parental knowledge
Recommending clinics that prescribe drugs over the internet

Spotting those red flags is not the same as accusing people of being predators. It's not an accusation, it's highlighting an area of weakness that could be exploited by predators.

The most shocking part of it all, to me, is the schools failing to spot the problem.

They are grown ups, trained professionals. How the hell did they miss it?

On countless MN threads there are people saying they 'can't see an issue' about something that would be glaringly obvious to anyone who has had safeguarding training - mixed-sex loos, etc - it's this same attitude that because they don't know about it it can't exist, and no-one could possibly know better.

Hoardasurass · 05/10/2022 16:43

Well I've just had a nice chat with the deputy head of my sons school about mermaids and the current shit show going on and how concerned I am about the ongoing use of them by the Scottish government and his school he was completely unaware of the recent developments and is off to read some articles in the Times and telegraph.
The absolute look of horror and oh shit this is really bad on his face was a sight to see especially as he was a very be kind type I think this might have tipped him over to our side 🥳

BitossiBlues · 05/10/2022 16:44

Don't you have other things to do @RobinMoiraWhite ? Like helping your TQ+ community impose its narcissistic self on abused and raped women via the Rape Crisis case? I'm sure Anthony White wouldn't be too impressed with your social media presence on here and Twitter. What with him being the hot shot reputation management barrister and all that. He should know that it's not that easy to get your online presence wiped off the search engines once it starts to embarrass you.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 16:44

@RobinMoiraWhite Thank you for the reply, no more B-word from me!

RobinMoiraWhite · 05/10/2022 16:45

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 16:00

Re: what I referred to above... sitting in a Tribunal and having the first 30 minutes of the hearing being the Judge (1) trying to get her head around the bundle and (2) lecturing the other side on how poor the bundle, really is a good sign that the case may lean in your favour!

The other thing that I've noticed is that if you say absolutely ludicrous things which are simply factually untrue or that the vast majority simply do not believe, there is a real risk that your case will suffer further. For example, in the case I hinted at up page (property related) the other side's representative was criticizing us for not knowing our stuff, whilst demonstrating unequivically that he did not know his stuff. At the risk of being goady imagine the property equivalent of claiming that someone with a male body can be a lesbian.

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I think the old quote is to never interrupt your opponent when they are making a mistake.

My case preparation generally includes a detailed document /issue/ evidence chronology and a good tip is to produce it on coloured paper because the tribunal find it harder to lose it among their papers.

Signalbox · 05/10/2022 16:45

OldCrone · 05/10/2022 16:21

I agree. If people want to discuss bundles, perhaps they could start another thread.

I'd like @RobinMoiraWhite to explain why the safeguarding issues associated with encouraging children to keep secrets from their parents is so confusing.

What aspect of this do you find confusing Robin?

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A new thread about bundles is a good idea. Perhaps RMW would like to start one since they are obviously keen to continue the conversation.

And I'd also be interested in the answer to this good, on-topic, still unanswered question.

rogdmum · 05/10/2022 16:47

Hoardasurass · 05/10/2022 14:48

And India Willoughby

I really do love JKR 😂

”India, I swear to God, if you want to start a petition for Mermaids to take me on in court, the first signature will be mine. twitter.com/IndiaWilloughb…”

twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1577684068447277059?s=61&t=ETvh42sHW6YnNnnj8Wy7eA

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/10/2022 16:48

Some years ago picklemewalnuts my school had a boy announce he'd be returning to school after the holidays as a girl. Troubled child, numerous mental health and behavioural issues, lots of loss in his background.
We looked online for advice, found the Mermaids website, read about celebratory assemblies to "glue" children into their decision, the need to put him in the girls changing rooms, toilets, dormitories to ensure that he was validated and so on. We looked at each other and decided immediately that while we would support the child with safe facilities etc for him, we would never force girls to undress etc with him in order to validate him.
It can be done - schools can responsibly support these vulnerable children without throwing the rest of the children under the bus. The fact that so many teachers and schools force girls into undressing, toileting, even sleeping with unknown males is always a demonstration of just how male demands for access to female bodies to do what they choose with hasn't changed for centuries.

noraclavicle · 05/10/2022 16:48

RobinMoiraWhite · 05/10/2022 16:32

We can talk bundles all night, if you like.

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Yes, you’d prefer that wouldn’t you? Anything rather than answer the questions posed to you regarding Mermaids.

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2022 16:52

Mermaids seem to have decided that parental alienation is actually desirable

This is crucial. I'd actually like to hear Mermaids' argument for it. It seems they are quite clear that they are there to communicate with children/YP bypassing said C/YP's parents/guardians.

Who has decided unilaterally that this is a good idea?

If an organisation is going to take on the job of caring for/advising/supporting/diagnosing/counselling a child, then surely that organisation has to be qualified and trained to the utmost highest standards? And that shoudln't happen in secret, but as part of a formal process?

The Scottish govt, for all its many failings, has recently realised that a child's most stuanch advocate and first teacher is his or her family. They seem to have written this into new education principles, and we are now told this frequently, that schools/the state are there to support, not take over, to educate, not indoctrinate, and that a child/YP's family must be respected above others.

I do wish I could find the relevant bit of bureau-waffle, because it seems like one thing that hasn't yet reached England? Not sure if it's because of our 'Named Person' fiasco or the subsequent UNHRC 'Rights of the Child' fiasco, but it's a good start, anyway.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 05/10/2022 16:55

On countless MN threads there are people saying they 'can't see an issue' about something that would be glaringly obvious to anyone who has had safeguarding training - mixed-sex loos, etc - it's this same attitude that because they don't know about it it can't exist, and no-one could possibly know better.

I'm more cynical. In my estimation you can only miss an elephant in the room this huge if you're wilfully closing your eyes to it.

What might motivate someone to do that - especially in such large numbers - is the question that keeps me awake.

It's not only predatory males but active enablers at every level of society that enable this behaviour to continue unchecked. The aftermath of #MeToo - the sense that #TimesUp and getting away with that kind of act - was sadly only a very temporary elation. Because we can all see the climate and circumstances that are necessary in order for it to thrive.

Then there's mock horror, the stories of what happens to men like this in prison, the pretence - because what else can it be? - that this is the one great taboo in our society and the people who engage in it are completely beyond redemption.

Meanwhile, more women victims of rape, sexual abuse and VAWG, as well as and CSA survivors with the courage to talk about our experiences, are repeatedly told we are jumping on the bandwagon, are man-haters, and should shut up.

I've experienced this precise attitude on this very site.

LaughingPriest · 05/10/2022 16:56

Hoardasurass · 05/10/2022 16:43

Well I've just had a nice chat with the deputy head of my sons school about mermaids and the current shit show going on and how concerned I am about the ongoing use of them by the Scottish government and his school he was completely unaware of the recent developments and is off to read some articles in the Times and telegraph.
The absolute look of horror and oh shit this is really bad on his face was a sight to see especially as he was a very be kind type I think this might have tipped him over to our side 🥳

Interesting - there's another thread recently where someone has said similar - once people look beyond the name 'Mermaids' and find out the recent stuff (not even the taking Miranda Y to court, data breach, genderbread person etc) they realise something is starting to smell a bit off.

Not all, obviously - there is a long way to go.

RobinMoiraWhite · 05/10/2022 16:56

noraclavicle · 05/10/2022 16:48

Yes, you’d prefer that wouldn’t you? Anything rather than answer the questions posed to you regarding Mermaids.

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This is social media, not ‘Question Time’. I’m not obliged to provide an answer because you would like to have it. There are many relevant things which could be said, but given the distracting, irrelevant and untrue Bailey bundle bashing, am I likely to think commenting on substantive issues here would be useful?

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 16:57

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2022 16:52

Mermaids seem to have decided that parental alienation is actually desirable

This is crucial. I'd actually like to hear Mermaids' argument for it. It seems they are quite clear that they are there to communicate with children/YP bypassing said C/YP's parents/guardians.

Who has decided unilaterally that this is a good idea?

If an organisation is going to take on the job of caring for/advising/supporting/diagnosing/counselling a child, then surely that organisation has to be qualified and trained to the utmost highest standards? And that shoudln't happen in secret, but as part of a formal process?

The Scottish govt, for all its many failings, has recently realised that a child's most stuanch advocate and first teacher is his or her family. They seem to have written this into new education principles, and we are now told this frequently, that schools/the state are there to support, not take over, to educate, not indoctrinate, and that a child/YP's family must be respected above others.

I do wish I could find the relevant bit of bureau-waffle, because it seems like one thing that hasn't yet reached England? Not sure if it's because of our 'Named Person' fiasco or the subsequent UNHRC 'Rights of the Child' fiasco, but it's a good start, anyway.

Either you validate or you kill the child.

Therefore, by definition, if the parent is not present when the child first presents then the child is worried about lack of validation and needs Mermaids to save their life by driving a wedge between child and parents.

So obvious, can;t believe you don;t understand how kind and good mermaids are...

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 17:00

RobinMoiraWhite · 05/10/2022 16:56

This is social media, not ‘Question Time’. I’m not obliged to provide an answer because you would like to have it. There are many relevant things which could be said, but given the distracting, irrelevant and untrue Bailey bundle bashing, am I likely to think commenting on substantive issues here would be useful?

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To be clear, you have time to post four lines of pretty much nothing, but not the time to say "appointing a trustee who, at the most charitable viewing has said some highly ill-advised things about children and sex, was a big mistake by mermaids".

Birdsweepsin · 05/10/2022 17:02

This is crucial. I'd actually like to hear Mermaids' argument for it. It seems they are quite clear that they are there to communicate with children/YP bypassing said C/YP's parents/guardians.

Who has decided unilaterally that this is a good idea?

I remember the 'Exit Button' conversations; the implication was that most, if not all parents disapprove of their child transitioning.

Given how young and vulnerable these individuals are, you'd have thought it would be a priority for Mermaids to enable and encourage conversations between kids and their parents rather than reinforce the 'evil parents' line?

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/03/26/mermaids-transgender-charity-exit-button-website-twitter-janice-turner-shon-faye/

nauticant · 05/10/2022 17:05

At least it's now clear that RMW is only on the thread to change the subject to bundles rather than to discuss the actual substance of the thread.

Best to leave bundle jibes out in the future to reduce the chance for RMW to appear having decided they've been invited to derail the thread.